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Old 22nd Jul 2019, 1:30 pm   #1
WaveyDipole
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Default Thermal imaging cameras in electronics

I notice some Youtubers (e.g. Big Clive) known for their electronics videos sometimes use thermal imaging cameras in their videos. These are very expensive bits of kit, although there do seem to be some comparatively cheap far east clones about. Still, it seems to me that the camera only serves to confirm what will already be known, or may have been determined by other means, assuming of course, that there is a thermal clue.

Given how expensive they are, I was wondering how much value they add to an electronics toolkit? Do many actually have one in their toolkit and does it get used regularly as part of the diagnostic process? or does it end up being an expensive toy that rarely seems the light of day?
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Old 22nd Jul 2019, 1:48 pm   #2
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Default Re: Thermal imaging cameras in electronics

I have a FLIR thermal camera which was bought for uses entirely unrelated to radio/electronics.

I've used it successfully to track down faults quickly on circuit boards where my amateur skill level might otherwise have struggled, and certainly needed more time, to find them.

As for the cost-benefit analysis of ownership for fault finding - not at all sure about that .

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Old 22nd Jul 2019, 1:50 pm   #3
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Default Re: Thermal imaging cameras in electronics

we make some and yes very expensive .but use them sometime in fault finding .often when current draw of a particular pcb is a bit high to see where the current is going ,when there is only a small rise in temp and when not sure which side of the board it is

http://www.thermoteknix.com/
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Old 22nd Jul 2019, 2:42 pm   #4
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Default Re: Thermal imaging cameras in electronics

Excessive current being drawn somewhere but not enough heat to provide a definite indication. I can see how a thermal imager might help in that circumstance.
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Old 22nd Jul 2019, 3:06 pm   #5
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Default Re: Thermal imaging cameras in electronics

I'm a bit surprised nobody has tried to fit thermal imaging into a mobile phone camera.

Plenty of manufacturers make a big thing of the photo side of their instruments. I really thought infra-red pyrometry would have been a feature somebody would have wanted, even if only for interesting dance floor snaps. Or for those who cannot eat anything without taking a picture of it first ..... at least they would know it was properly cooked!
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Old 22nd Jul 2019, 4:02 pm   #6
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Default Re: Thermal imaging cameras in electronics

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Originally Posted by WaveyDipole View Post
Excessive current being drawn somewhere but not enough heat to provide a definite indication. I can see how a thermal imager might help in that circumstance.
And the converse is obviously true; something that stands out as cool, as compared with its 'sibling' components, is worth checking out.

13 amp plus and sockets supplying a heavy load can often raise an eyebrow!

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Old 22nd Jul 2019, 6:00 pm   #7
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Default Re: Thermal imaging cameras in electronics

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Originally Posted by julie_m View Post
I'm a bit surprised nobody has tried to fit thermal imaging into a mobile phone camera.

Plenty of manufacturers make a big thing of the photo side of their instruments. I really thought infra-red pyrometry would have been a feature somebody would have wanted, even if only for interesting dance floor snaps. Or for those who cannot eat anything without taking a picture of it first ..... at least they would know it was properly cooked!
CPC sell a range of adaptors for smartphones. Still not exactly cheap.
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Old 22nd Jul 2019, 6:50 pm   #8
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Smile Re: Thermal imaging cameras in electronics

We have the complete FLIR setup for our work and our electrician went on a couple of days course to understand the limitations of the equipment and assess and interpret the data to produce reports.

Our main use for the equipment is to check for hotspots developing in contactors, MCB's in our genset control panels and our 11kV switchrooms where you can only see what is happening in the non contact form. We do this six monthly as part of our planned maintenance. We can then compare data from previous examinations to see if there is any deterioration (mainly high resistance contacts) in equipment.

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Old 22nd Jul 2019, 7:16 pm   #9
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Default Re: Thermal imaging cameras in electronics

In my experience it is semiconductors that are the critical components regarding high temperatures and whilst junction failure temperatures do differ a good test for survival is whether or not you can hold your finger on the device. If you can't then you need to calculate the thermal resistance and check against the highest ambient and the chip absolute max. rating.

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Old 22nd Jul 2019, 9:01 pm   #10
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Default Re: Thermal imaging cameras in electronics

I specified their use as part of a preventative maintenance program on industrial switch gear but even then you need a baseline to compare against over time. However I think like many bits of test gear if you have it you will find all sorts of uses for it!
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Old 23rd Jul 2019, 5:10 am   #11
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Default Re: Thermal imaging cameras in electronics

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Originally Posted by julie_m View Post
I'm a bit surprised nobody has tried to fit thermal imaging into a mobile phone camera.
Not 'into' the phone, but as an add-on to a phone.

https://wiki.ezvid.com/best-thermal-imagers-for-android
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Old 23rd Jul 2019, 6:09 am   #12
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Default Re: Thermal imaging cameras in electronics

We have one at the "day job".
It's primarily used for checking high current (bolted junction) connections in installations, but also used in development for new designs to check that cooling is adequate.
I have very occasionally used it for PCB fault finding, but only because we have it. I can't see that it could be justified for that alone.
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Old 23rd Jul 2019, 2:04 pm   #13
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Default Re: Thermal imaging cameras in electronics

FLIR make thermal imaging cameras (FLIR ONE) that plug onto an iPhone/iPad and they work very well.
I bought one to search out c/heating pipes in daughters's new house. Saved a fortune not drilling though hidden pipes.

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Old 23rd Jul 2019, 2:21 pm   #14
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Default Re: Thermal imaging cameras in electronics

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bazz4CQJ View Post
And the converse is obviously true; something that stands out as cool, as compared with its 'sibling' components, is worth checking out.

13 amp plus and sockets supplying a heavy load can often raise an eyebrow!

B
Hadn't considered that, but yes, that makes sense as well. Might possibly mean something is o/c. Also hadn't really thought of using it to look at mains sockets. I guess it would also show a loose arcing connection quite nicely!

Quote:
Originally Posted by evingar View Post
I have very occasionally used it for PCB fault finding, but only because we have it. I can't see that it could be justified for that alone.
That was my initial thought, but it has been interesting get other views. The phone add-on gizmos for Android start at around £80 on eBay and go up to over £150 so not exactly cheap in terms of a hobbyist budget, and I have found little information regarding their quality. What little I have found does not appear to be too convincing.

No one has mentioned any usage scenarios in connection with vintage equipment. I guess it would probably spot resistors that are getting particularly hot, although usually there are other outward signs. Could it, say, detect a transformer with shorted windings (Would such a fault have a thermal signature?)? Or perhaps a capacitor starting to break down?
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Old 23rd Jul 2019, 3:44 pm   #15
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Default Re: Thermal imaging cameras in electronics

Cameras can see infra red remote controls, maybe next years offerings will explore this? It will only take one manufacturer to start the ball rolling.
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Old 23rd Jul 2019, 5:49 pm   #16
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Default Re: Thermal imaging cameras in electronics

They are already "a thing". The CAT S60 and S61
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ViixPyuBSlA

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cat_phone
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Old 23rd Jul 2019, 9:37 pm   #17
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Default Re: Thermal imaging cameras in electronics

I have one that plugs into an Android phone. I found it on a street! I presume it was being used by a double glazing salesman or surveyor. It's small but seems to work OK. It does have a focus ring but I have never tried it very close up.
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Old 26th Jul 2019, 11:36 am   #18
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Default Re: Thermal imaging cameras in electronics

Indeed, I used an ordinary mobile phone camera to check q remote control and also that an IR device being used in a project was actually emitting a while back. Some cameras work better than others for this. Some don't work at all. I guess the sensor has a wider sensitivity across the spectrum than the human eye, but it also depends on the filtering.

A while back we had a energy consumption "advisor" apparently participating in some government scheme have a look at our attic and upstairs rooms. He used a small unit that attached to a mobile phone to detect "the ingress of damp". We realised very quickly that he was a salesman on a pressure sales mission. After he rather spooked us by advising that we urgently needed to have the whole roof re-felted and re-tiled, I asked a builder friend of a friend to have a look. He told us that the tears in the felt were quite normal and nothing to worry about but could be patched up if I wanted. Anyway I digress.

I think what he used was simply a thermal imager add-on for a mobile phone and the damp spots were simply cold thermal spots, although he very quickly concealed the unit when he realised I was trying to get more information about it.
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Old 26th Jul 2019, 11:56 am   #19
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Default Re: Thermal imaging cameras in electronics

Quote:
Originally Posted by WaveyDipole View Post
A while back we had a energy consumption "advisor" apparently participating in some government scheme have a look at our attic and upstairs rooms. He used a small unit that attached to a mobile phone to detect "the ingress of damp". We realised very quickly that he was a salesman on a pressure sales mission. After he rather spooked us by advising that we urgently needed to have the whole roof re-felted and re-tiled, I asked a builder friend of a friend to have a look.
As was mentioned in post#8, thermal imaging cameras need to be used by someone who is competent with them for more complex assessments. Some expertise is needed to be confident about what they are showing sometimes, so be wary of anyone who is using one to try and sell you goods or services based on what he claims he's seeing!

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Old 28th Jul 2019, 3:41 pm   #20
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Default Re: Thermal imaging cameras in electronics

I’m really amazed at the progress made in thermal imagery. When I used these devices many moons ago we had large cylinders of gas to cool them, today i am so impressed with there performance without have to bother with cooling the sensors.
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