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Vintage Tape (Audio), Cassette, Wire and Magnetic Disc Recorders and Players Open-reel tape recorders, cassette recorders, 8-track players etc.

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Old 19th Sep 2018, 6:00 pm   #1
jarvis1957
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Default Reel to reel tapes

I am planning to get a Japanese recorder such as Akai 4000DS (boyhood dream!) but I'm a bit worried about the availability of tapes. I've heard that modern studio 'back coated' 1/4 inch tape is not suitable for these domestic machines. Is this true? Would I be better getting old tapes of e-bay (avoiding those that shed coating)
Thanks
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Old 19th Sep 2018, 8:26 pm   #2
Ted Kendall
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Default Re: Reel to reel tapes

Firstly, if you're fishing in that pool. go for a Sony TC377 or 399, which has features the Akai lacks, such as servo back-tension and a proper speed change, as opposed to the capstan sleeve on the Akai.

Neither machine uses pressure pads, so matt-backed tape will be OK. Best to use long play rather than standard, as this is more supple and will sit better against the heads.
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Old 19th Sep 2018, 8:53 pm   #3
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Default Re: Reel to reel tapes

Another good machine of this era is the Tandberg. Very well built, properly serviced they will last a long time.

I agree with Ted, the Akai was never as good as the sony and uses IC's which are now impossible to obtain.
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Old 19th Sep 2018, 9:14 pm   #4
jarvis1957
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Default Re: Reel to reel tapes

We had a Tanberg in school for recording BBC radio!
Just seen a 9000x. Any good?
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Old 19th Sep 2018, 9:51 pm   #5
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Default Re: Reel to reel tapes

The best tape to use with 70s and 80s Japanese domestic machines is unquestionably the formulations produced by Maxell and TDK at that time. These are no longer made (as far as I know anyway) but there is plenty of lightly used secondhand stuff around on eBay and elsewhere. These tapes haven't deteriorated with age if stored properly. The SP (1200' on a 7" reel) and LP (1800') formulations will normally give the best results and are very robust.

Beware that all old tape recorders have maintenance issues, and the closer to the professional end of the market they are, the more hours they are likely to have done and the more expensive and difficult they will be to fix.
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Old 19th Sep 2018, 10:26 pm   #6
Michael Maurice
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Default Re: Reel to reel tapes

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Originally Posted by jarvis1957 View Post
We had a Tanberg in school for recording BBC radio!
Just seen a 9000x. Any good?
If its the one on Ebay, then thats 1/2 track not 1/4 track which the Akai and Sony are.
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Old 19th Sep 2018, 11:32 pm   #7
jamesperrett
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Default Re: Reel to reel tapes

If you want to buy new tape then Recording The Masters now produce tapes with the old BASF formulations - LPR35 is probably the one to go for with the sort of machine you are looking at. More info can be found at http://www.tapecity.co.uk/acatalog/0.25--Tape-1-1.html

They're not cheap now - I remember paying £3.50 per 7" reel of Maxell back in the 1980's.
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Old 20th Sep 2018, 2:28 am   #8
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Default Re: Reel to reel tapes

As an Akai 4000DS mk. II owner myself, I feel a sort of duty to defend the machine The Akai machines have a beautiful, elegant functional simplicity to their appearance, where the Sony machines are full of awkward, slightly ugly angles. Someone has put together a work-around for the "unobtainium" preamp ICs used in the Akai 4000DS mk. I, so it's not the end of the world. A more serious issue is the mechanism uses cams made out of a cheap alloy that can be prone to cracking. Many are fine, but some just have a tendency to break up.

One thing is certain, though: once you have used a three-head tape recorder, you will never, ever want to go back to using two heads again (barring certain scenarios with multi-track recording, where you want the new signal to align precisely with the existing ones ..... but that's a different situation). But you will need to get a head demagnetiser, since the separate playback head is getting no self-demagnetising effect from the recording bias. Otherwise, you might find your tapes getting almost imperceptibly quieter every time you listen to them ..... Magnetised tape heads really are not something you want to find out about the way I once did
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Old 20th Sep 2018, 10:39 am   #9
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Default Re: Reel to reel tapes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Maurice View Post
If its the one on Ebay, then thats 1/2 track not 1/4 track which the Akai and Sony are.
Ok that raises the whole question of 1/2 track or 1/4 track. I plan most to use this for recording radio programs, so I'm not sure it matters that much, unless I mistaken (which I often am!)
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Old 20th Sep 2018, 11:30 am   #10
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Default Re: Reel to reel tapes

Half track stereo is basically a professional standard. It produces better results than quarter track, but obviously uses twice as much tape. You should assess any half track machine carefully - it may have sat unused in a college storeroom, but equally it may have been hammered for many years in a radio studio.

Half track stereo machines rarely support speeds less than 3.75ips and would have been mostly used at 7.5 or even 15ips.
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Old 20th Sep 2018, 12:04 pm   #11
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Default Re: Reel to reel tapes

Quote:
Originally Posted by jamesperrett View Post
If you want to buy new tape then Recording The Masters now produce tapes with the old BASF formulations - LPR35 is probably the one to go for with the sort of machine you are looking at. More info can be found at http://www.tapecity.co.uk/acatalog/0.25--Tape-1-1.html

They're not cheap now - I remember paying £3.50 per 7" reel of Maxell back in the 1980's.
equivalent to around £15 today once inflation is taken into account.

There's no reason not to use back coated tape with domestic machines such as the Akai 4000 series or the Sony TC3xx. I've owned examples of both.

But there's no real benefit to you in back coated tape either. As mentioned Recording The Masters LP35 tape is basically the old BASF formula from the 70s and 80s and will not let you down.

Also search eBay for "vintage" Maxell, BASF, Zonal tapes. I've had good luck with TDK Audua tape but other say avoid it. Bear in mind that some tapes (Often Ampex) from the 70s are known for "sticky shed syndrome" where they shed oxide and stick to your heads. A myth that this is to do with back coating, it is due to a change in binder material in the 70s when whale oil was no longer available.
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Old 20th Sep 2018, 12:10 pm   #12
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Default Re: Reel to reel tapes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Maurice View Post
Another good machine of this era is the Tandberg. Very well built, properly serviced they will last a long time.

I agree with Ted, the Akai was never as good as the sony and uses IC's which are now impossible to obtain.
A lot of Tandbergs from that era use pressure pads. The ones that don't are the three motor logic controll types: 9000X, 9100X, 9200XD, 10X, 10XD, TD20A. At least the 9000X/9100X/9200XD and 10X/XD use digital chips for the logic control which are very hard to find these days, although a creative service technician might be able to conjure up certain replacements using modern-day chips. (Not sure what's in the TD20A).

Another problem with Tandbergs is that the pinch rollers invariably need replacement as the rubber they used did not last and tends to crack with age. Not really a major problem as there are refurbishing services available, but something that needs to be factored in.

Apart from these niggles I second that the three motor Tandbergs are very reliable, although perhaps not overly sophisticated mechanically. For instance, the logic control on the 9100X has no idea of tape tension etc during braking, and activates the solenoids and motors for fixed periods of time in order to stop the tape. It does work reliably though.
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Old 20th Sep 2018, 1:04 pm   #13
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Default Re: Reel to reel tapes

Quarter track, used carefully, is fine for recording radio programmes. The signal-to-noise ratio is about 3db worse than half track, but still entirely adequate. LF crosstalk very occasionally becomes audible, but at sensible levels isn't a problem. Poor spooling can lead to edge damage and dropouts, and here matt backed tape, which spools better than smooth backed, helps.
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Old 20th Sep 2018, 3:48 pm   #14
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Default Re: Reel to reel tapes

Check for old 7" 1800' stock at Studiospares. Or go for imports from USA or Japan.
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Old 20th Sep 2018, 4:06 pm   #15
jarvis1957
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Default Re: Reel to reel tapes

Ok, here's another question (and thanks so far for all your help). Some of the radio programs I would like to record are up to 3 hours long (classical music), if I use a LP 7" tape at 1 7/8ips I should get 3 hours but is the quality likely to be good enough?
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Old 20th Sep 2018, 4:41 pm   #16
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Default Re: Reel to reel tapes

Marginal, I'd say - the wow performance is likely to be not quite good enough, and the hiss will be obtrusive, unless you go the Dolby B route. Tape quality is critical, too, as dropouts can become obtrusive. 3 3/4 is, to my mind, the sensible minimum for serious listening. Off-hand, I can't think of a work which runs over 90' without a break of some kind - perhaps Parsifal Act 3? If you want to cover more than 90', it's double play or bigger reels.
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Old 20th Sep 2018, 4:58 pm   #17
jarvis1957
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Default Re: Reel to reel tapes

Yes, I think you are right Ted. If I have a 1/4 track machine I assume I can record on a 1800 foot tape at 3 3/4 ips for 90 mins then turn the tape over and record for another 90 min?
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Old 20th Sep 2018, 5:08 pm   #18
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Default Re: Reel to reel tapes

The only way is to use triple play tape at 3.75 ips. A 7" reel will give 190 min at 3.75ips.

In a more general sense, unless you are fairly technical and are prepared to put up with some rather fiddly work, and pay a fair bit for media, I would not recommend the reel to reel route for recording. There are modern alternatives which give comparable and/or better sound quality and greater convenience. It's neither a cheap nor a simple hobby (but once you're hooked that's it!)
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Old 20th Sep 2018, 5:23 pm   #19
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Default Re: Reel to reel tapes

Akai 4000DS MkII is preferable to MKI as it has discrete transistor electronics, and a
pull mono facility to mute one channel.
If archiving of tapes is intended, to prevent print through (i.e. pre-echo) the tape should be played and not rewound and 2 track stereo (or 4 track stereo using one side only) is to be preferred. This problem is more pronounced on thinner tapes.
As to tape types, Sony are as good as others from Japan (had their own tape factory).
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Old 20th Sep 2018, 5:30 pm   #20
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Default Re: Reel to reel tapes

If you want to record at slow speeds you should *definitely* go for Maxell/TDK tapes. They perform particularly well.

The other comments are right though - 1.875ips isn't a hifi speed on any R2R recorder, unlike cassette decks where everything is optimised for that speed.
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