Playing 78's

[Ted Kendall]

Originally Posted by TIMTAPE

Listening to a mono record in stereo is pointless as the extra "information " we hear is just noise we don't want to hear such as turntable rumble.

Listening, yes - but the vertical information is used by such as the Packburn or my own Front End to steer around crackle and treat larger clicks. The mono cartridge fad is just that. It contains the barely concealed assumption that vertical stylus deflection in a mono groove either does not exist or does not matter. Neither is the case. Pinch effect, caused by the narrowing of groove width with deflection, causes vertical displacement of the stylus, which the pickup must accommodate. If it hasn't sufficient vertical compliance, as was the case with the Tannoy Variluctance, the result is excess record wear.

[TIMTAPE]

Yes, capturing in "stereo" preserves both lateral and vertical information, allowing more noise reduction options in post processing, as well as minimising groove damage due to poor or no vertical compliance.

ISTR in the early days of vinyl stereo discs, mono cartridges but with good vertical compliance were fitted to mono record players.

[arjoll]

Originally Posted by Martin Bush

My good deck is a Project but doesn't spin at 78rpm. Even if it did (I know there is a modification), the cartridge and stylus are not easy to change.

Most ProJects come with an Ortofon cartridge - 2M or OM mainly I think. You can get a 78 RPM stylus for those, and they're not hard to change. I went the whole hog and got both a 2M-78 stylus and the 78 RPM pully for my 1xpression Carbon, but as others have mentioned you can sort out the speed in software.

(edit) Found a video of me digitising one of dad's old 78s not long after I got the ProJect and 78 RPM bits. This was an acoustic recording from the 1920s that he bought for his mum as a teenager in the 1950s. The audio isn't intended for consumption (it was just whatever was picked up by my phone from some PC speakers plugged in to the monitor output of the US122 I was recording with), but more showing a modern turntable running at that speed with the right stylus. https://1drv.ms/u/s!Ajyp8sRoAWZan59l...4dyyQ?e=U2KIK4

[Martin Bush]

I have the original Ortofon cart, but the replacement styli for that were too expensive - and I would need two if I was to get one for 78s.

So I now have a cheap Audio Technica cart and stylus which I am unsure of they do 78 versions to fit. I will investigate.

Great video by the way @arjoll

[ben]

I'll probably get shot down in flames, but when I read about people seeking out light magnetic cartridges and expensive styli to play 78's on, I just smile when I recall what they were originally played on

[Cathovisor]

Originally Posted by ben

I'll probably get shot down in flames, but when I read about people seeking out light magnetic cartridges and expensive styli to play 78s on, I just smile when I recall what they were originally played on

Someone who's clearly never come across a vinyl Pye Nixa recording.

The early Decca Type D is very kind to records and tracks at a light weight, similarly the Connoisseur pickups (as used in my McMichael DL1): before the war there was the Burndept pickup as used by the BBC (and in my 1930 Burndept radiogram, oddly enough) and let's not forget the HMV 'Hypersensitive'.

With a well-chosen stylus and a laminated disc, the results can be quite astonishing. By selecting styli of different radii it is possible to sit the tip above or below the wear line. This is what professional restorers do: also, by using a stereo cartridge it is possible to find the less-worn side of the groove.

I have a CD with a restored copy of Mister Rhythm Man by Nat Gonella And His Georgians. My original copy played with my Type D sounds no different to the restored copy.

Also, looking through the pages of old copies of The Gramophone much was made of playing records with fibre or thorn needles; I have a few of the latter. Very often classified adverts either sought records played with a fibre, or specified that's all they'd been played with.

Not everything was played with a steel needle on a travelling arm Columbia, you know.

[Cathovisor]

Originally Posted by Martin Bush

I have the original Ortofon cart, but the replacement styli for that were too expensive - and I would need two if I was to get one for 78s.

So I now have a cheap Audio Technica cart and stylus which I am unsure of they do 78 versions to fit. I will investigate.

Great video by the way @arjoll

AT do sell 78rpm styli, it's just a question of "but for your cartridge?"

[Cathovisor]

Originally Posted by arjoll

(edit) Found a video of me digitising one of dad's old 78s not long after I got the ProJect and 78 RPM bits. This was an acoustic recording from the 1920s that he bought for his mum as a teenager in the 1950s.

The most difficult thing I've digitised were a selection of 6" Berliner discs, not least of which because the speeds were frequently anything but 78rpm. This is where my Portogram record player became invaluable as it is fitted with a GL72.

A mate did the noise reduction for me and did some spectral editing too; he makes excellent stereo conversions of mono discs using this process. His YT channel is below:

https://www.youtube.com/@Digitally-Extracted-Stereo

[Martin Bush]

Originally Posted by Cathovisor

AT do sell 78rpm styli, it's just a question of "but for your cartridge?"

They do, but I need to look properly at what fits what. One helpful page on their site linked to a dead one... so I gave up, but I will resume my search soon.

[locknut]

Originally Posted by Cathovisor

The most difficult thing I've digitised were a selection of 6" Berliner discs, not least of which because the speeds were frequently anything but 78rpm. This is where my Portogram record player became invaluable as it is fitted with a GL72.

That's the beauty of the Lenco turntables, the variable speed has no problem accommodating the early discs that can be anywhere between 70 & 80 rpm.

They often came fitted with a Goldring G800, stick in a D110-78 stylus and you're away.

[ToneArm]

Originally Posted by ben

I'll probably get shot down in flames, but when I read about people seeking out light magnetic cartridges and expensive styli to play 78's on, I just smile when I recall what they were originally played on

Well, the very best sounding playback for me has been with a leak dynamic tonearm and cartridge. But you may be right Ben, placing a tiny irreplaceable diamond on a battered old disk is quite scary. At 78rpm it looks like an abrasive wheel! So i always use cheap generic styli on a shure m75 and the leak is languishing in a drawer...

Cheers
Glyn

[Restoration73]

I've used a Stanton 500 with 78 stylus, quite robust.

It is possible to find 78s (eg 1950s) that have only been played with a light weight i.e.
less than 10 grams that have not suffered. Yes the medium does have residual surface
noise, but much less than those subject to previous exposure to steel.

[Ted Kendall]

Originally Posted by ben

I'll probably get shot down in flames, but when I read about people seeking out light magnetic cartridges and expensive styli to play 78's on, I just smile when I recall what they were originally played on

Analogue recordings, especially discs, have always contained more information than the contemporary playback means were able to extract, and as early as 1926 Percy Wilson went into print with this fact, also with a reasonable analysis of record wear.

As one who has made hundreds of CD reissues from shellac 78s, I can vouch for the fact that modern techniques, properly applied, can bring us consistently closer to the original performance than contemporary equipment.

[Cathovisor]

Originally Posted by ToneArm

Well, the very best sounding playback for me has been with a leak dynamic tonearm and cartridge. But you may be right Ben, placing a tiny irreplaceable diamond on a battered old disk is quite scary.

That's why we have Expert Stylus

[Cathovisor]

Originally Posted by locknut

That's the beauty of the Lenco turntables, the variable speed has no problem accommodating the early discs that can be anywhere between 70 & 80 rpm.

They often came fitted with a Goldring G800, stick in a D110-78 stylus and you're away.

Berliners, I discovered, can be as slow as 60 rpm. The only way you can tell this is simply by playing them back and adjusting the speed until they sound "right" as no speed is marked on them. Okay, you could do this in FFMPEG but I prefer to try and get it right before digitising (at 48kHz).

My GL75 has a Shure M44 fitted with an Expert "compromise" tip of 3.2thou, whilst the GL72 in the Portogram has a Sanyo ceramic in it with a conventional 2.5thou stylus - I believe (BICBW) that Berliner grooves are typically suited to 1.5thou. Now, where's that purple-spot Collaro head when you need it?!

[ben]

Originally Posted by Ted Kendall

Analogue recordings, especially discs, have always contained more information than the contemporary playback means were able to extract, and as early as 1926 Percy Wilson went into print with this fact, also with a reasonable analysis of record wear.

As one who has made hundreds of CD reissues from shellac 78s, I can vouch for the fact that modern techniques, properly applied, can bring us consistently closer to the original performance than contemporary equipment.

Couldn't agree more, if we're talking about digitizing then of course it helps to have the very best gear, to say nothing of a variety of tip radiuses. However, there's a world of difference between the precision needed for that undertaking, and the casual listener who just wants to hear the things through his home stereo.

[Courtney Louise]

I use a Dual CS5000, Has 78 speed and the Ortofon OM Cartridge can take a 78rpm or the normal modern OM5 or OM10 tip for playing Stereo or Microgroove records.

[TIMTAPE]

Originally Posted by ben

Couldn't agree more, if we're talking about digitizing then of course it helps to have the very best gear, to say nothing of a variety of tip radiuses. However, there's a world of difference between the precision needed for that undertaking, and the casual listener who just wants to hear the things through his home stereo.

Compared to 40 years ago the situation today is different. We can now buy a cheap USB turntable, digitize a record and upload it to the internet. Digitizing has become almost a push button exercise. A child can do it. But whether our digital copy does justice to the record or tape is another matter.