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Old 28th Jun 2021, 7:51 pm   #1
audion_1908
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Default Vintage 1950 twin Electric Belling Cooker

I have just got a twin baby belling cooker made I think 1950? It's a model 51H 3200 watt 230/240v, it has a spiral ring and square solid hotplate, an oven and separate grill, it cost me £18 plus £15 rail.
I have some questions
(1) when was it made the model has not helped
(2) dose it have asbestos rope or insulation if so what's the best way to replace?
Current draw on plate is 3200watts thats 230v = 13.91 amps 240 = 13.33amps, was this designed to be used on a 15amp plug not 13amp? I can fit eather but if a 15a plug it will have a 16amp breaker, it dose have what looks like 2.5mm back rubber power cable.
(3) earth leakage, I have read the spiral rings leak if not used regularly? So would it nuisance trip an RCD regularly? So is it best on its own radial circuit with its own RCD?
(4) power cable, it looks to be a black rubber cable in old colours, dose this need to be replaced? It looks in good condition, if so what is best to use?
(5) heading elements and controls, how do I test and service them? Can I get spares?
(6) is there a service manual for this model?

Last edited by audion_1908; 28th Jun 2021 at 8:10 pm.
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Old 28th Jun 2021, 8:18 pm   #2
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Default Re: Vintage 1950 twin Electric Belling Cooker

Pics
Am I missing anything? I think it's ment to have 2 trays?

Anything else I should know about this vintage oven?
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Old 28th Jun 2021, 8:46 pm   #3
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Default Re: Vintage 1950 twin Electric Belling Cooker

Plug it came with, don't worry I won't plug it in
Has anyone else had experience with this type of table top cooker?
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Old 28th Jun 2021, 9:12 pm   #4
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Default Re: Vintage 1950 twin Electric Belling Cooker

I remember similar from my student-days living in 'digs'.

I'd replace the old rubber-covered cable with modern 'high-temperature' flex [available from the likes of Screwfix: it's used to feed immersion-heaters] and feed it from a normal 13A outlet. Unless you're cooking-up something really crazy the onff cycling of the thermostats/temperature-regulators will average-out the load over many minutes so you won't have any issues.

[In the past when rebuilding my kitchen I ran a four-ring, grill and oven cooker from a single 13A outlet without issues. "Load Diversity" lets you commit many power-supply sins]
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Old 28th Jun 2021, 9:29 pm   #5
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Default Re: Vintage 1950 twin Electric Belling Cooker

I have looked at immersion heater flex and it's only rated for 90 degrees c?

Will it run off a modified sine wave inverter? As pure sine wave 3 kW plus inverters are a bit expensive!
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Old 28th Jun 2021, 9:33 pm   #6
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Default Re: Vintage 1950 twin Electric Belling Cooker

90C is fine - if your cooker's case is heating to 90C _outside_ the cooking-space of the oven/grill then you should be worrying more about getting burns from inadvertent skin-contact than anything going-on electrically.
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Old 28th Jun 2021, 9:34 pm   #7
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Default Re: Vintage 1950 twin Electric Belling Cooker

Quote:
Originally Posted by G6Tanuki View Post
I remember similar from my student-days living in 'digs'.
Did it work well as a cooker? was it a double or the apparently more common single oven and ring?
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Old 28th Jun 2021, 9:36 pm   #8
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Default Re: Vintage 1950 twin Electric Belling Cooker

Quote:
Originally Posted by G6Tanuki View Post
90C is fine - if your cooker's case is heating to 90C _outside_ the cooking-space of the oven/grill then you should be worrying more about getting burns from inadvertent skin-contact than anything going-on electrically.
I was thinking more about the wire ends inside, what was the rubber rated at?
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Old 28th Jun 2021, 9:39 pm   #9
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Default Re: Vintage 1950 twin Electric Belling Cooker

Quote:
Originally Posted by G6Tanuki View Post
I'd replace the old rubber-covered cable with modern 'high-temperature' flex [available from the likes of Screwfix: it's used to feed immersion-heaters] and feed it from a normal 13A outlet. Unless you're cooking-up something really crazy the onff cycling of the thermostats/temperature-regulators will average-out the load over many minutes so you won't have any issues.

[In the past when rebuilding my kitchen I ran a four-ring, grill and oven cooker from a single 13A outlet without issues. "Load Diversity" lets you commit many power-supply sins]
I am going to be putting in new wiring so I can customise to what's best, I know it will probably ran absolutely fine off a 13amp socket.
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Old 28th Jun 2021, 9:45 pm   #10
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Default Re: Vintage 1950 twin Electric Belling Cooker

The mains-connection cable shouldn't be connected _directly_ to any of the heating elements, so it shouldn't be running hot.

The wires to the hot connections of actual elements will probably be protected by something like "Fishbone" ceramic-bead insulators.

if your cooker has asbestos-covered wire in such locations you can get modern "SIF/GL" wire to use as a replacement - this is rated to something like 200C - I've used it for the wiring to high-power valve amplifier anode-connectors.
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Old 28th Jun 2021, 10:05 pm   #11
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Default Re: Vintage 1950 twin Electric Belling Cooker

If the mains flex is sound then nothing prohibits continued use. It would in my view be preferable to replace the flex. Any modern type of high temperature 1.5 mm flex should be fine.

Unless exceptionally heavy use is expected than a 13 amp plug will be fine.

At 230 volts the current used will be LESS than that used at 240 volts, and lot more as is suggested in the O/P.

These are simple and reliable appliances with little to go wrong.
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Old 28th Jun 2021, 10:12 pm   #12
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Default Re: Vintage 1950 twin Electric Belling Cooker

Quote:
Originally Posted by G6Tanuki View Post
The mains-connection cable shouldn't be connected _directly_ to any of the heating elements, so it shouldn't be running hot.

The wires to the hot connections of actual elements will probably be protected by something like "Fishbone" ceramic-bead insulators.

if your cooker has asbestos-covered wire in such locations you can get modern "SIF/GL" wire to use as a replacement - this is rated to something like 200C - I've used it for the wiring to high-power valve amplifier anode-connectors.
Thanks for the info, I googled both the fishbone ceramic bead insulators look cool!

I don't like the idea of handling asbestos
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Old 28th Jun 2021, 10:16 pm   #13
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Default Re: Vintage 1950 twin Electric Belling Cooker

Quote:
Originally Posted by broadgage View Post
If the mains flex is sound then nothing prohibits continued use. It would in my view be preferable to replace the flex. Any modern type of high temperature 1.5 mm flex should be fine.

Unless exceptionally heavy use is expected than a 13 amp plug will be fine.

At 230 volts the current used will be LESS than that used at 240 volts, and lot more as is suggested in the O/P.

These are simple and reliable appliances with little to go wrong.
I was taking the worst case numbers for the current by dividing the wattage by the 2 voltages listed on the oven, I know it will be less at 230v than 240v as it's a simple resistive heating device without a switch mode power supply.
But the duty cycle could be high

It was fitted with a 2.5mm cable for a reason? It suggests a potentially high duty cycle

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Old 28th Jun 2021, 10:59 pm   #14
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Default Re: Vintage 1950 twin Electric Belling Cooker

From
https://community.screwfix.com/threa...x-load.202715/

(The BS for a double socket requires it be capable of supplying a load of 14amps from one outlet and 6amps from the other. However, some manufacturers (MK for example) exceed the requirements. I know 14amps seems odd, but this is the test carried out on socket outlets to ensure they conform.

It is quite well known in the industry that double sockets are not intended to supply 2 x 13amp loads. You try to avoid this scenario in commercial applications, or install MK sockets. Some commercial installations specify single sockets due to this.)

So it looks like I should use a quality socket or a single socket
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Old 29th Jun 2021, 10:16 am   #15
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Default Re: Vintage 1950 twin Electric Belling Cooker

As noted by @Broadgage, the maximum current at 230V is likely below 13A as the rated current or power of a heating element is usually given at the upper voltage of its range. UK mains can exceed 250V but we are talking about small tolerances on the load current here. What is more important is that a good quality plug with clean, tight fuse contacts is fitted, and not used via cheap extension leads with inferior siocket contacts. The known limitations of 13A plugs on 3kW loads typically manifest on appliances running continuously for hours at a time, especially where the plug is inaccessible and early signs of overheating remain undetected.

1.5mm² butyl rubber flex would be my choice. The flex does not visit any specifically hot parts but the temperature around the terminal block will be high with the oven in use.

Sheathed heating elements can develop leakage due to moisture ingress over time. The usual behaviour is that the insulation will be low as-fouond but not low enough to trip an RCD. When each element is first heated, after a few minutes the accumulated moisture condenses and concentrates at the cool ends of the element and the IR falls to a point where a trip is likely. Once the temperature is more uniform, the moisture disperses somewhat and the IR rises. Over an extended period of use the IR improves as the moisture escapes.

30 years ago I was involved in a mass element change in Baby Bellings belonging to local authorities. Many were only used occasionally and their leakage was increasingly causing ISITEE failure and nuisance trips. At the time we were able to get new elements with improved sealing, that promised to withstand the infrequent usage cycle without a progressive decline in IR. We had tried baking the existing elements on an isolating transformer and driving the moisture along with a blowtorch, but we were able to get a good price on the new elements through quantity purchase so it made sense to replace on sight even if the existing ones were OK.
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Old 29th Jun 2021, 10:45 am   #16
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Default Re: Vintage 1950 twin Electric Belling Cooker

Quote:
Originally Posted by audion_1908 View Post

......

Will it run off a modified sine wave inverter? As pure sine wave 3 kW plus inverters are a bit expensive!
It'll run off anything from dc to white noise as long as the rms voltage is somewhere near 240V! (Possibly the switches/energy regulators would be unhappy on dc or high frequency ac, though.)

Err....... why would you want to
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Old 29th Jun 2021, 11:42 am   #17
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Default Re: Vintage 1950 twin Electric Belling Cooker

I remember this type of cooker being used in some local government buildings in the 1970's, would be a little bit old fashioned then.
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Old 29th Jun 2021, 1:08 pm   #18
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Default Re: Vintage 1950 twin Electric Belling Cooker

Hello,
I think it is 1960s rather than 1950. The picture below is from an (online) Belling catalogue for 1962.
It does say ' Works off any power point'
Yours, Richard
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Old 29th Jun 2021, 1:58 pm   #19
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Default Re: Vintage 1950 twin Electric Belling Cooker

Interesting to see a dc model offered at extra cost.

I wonder if it sold as ac/dc compatible or dc only?
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Old 29th Jun 2021, 2:55 pm   #20
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Default Re: Vintage 1950 twin Electric Belling Cooker

Quote:
Originally Posted by Herald1360 View Post
Interesting to see a dc model offered at extra cost.

I wonder if it sold as ac/dc compatible or dc only?
I would expect that the DC model had a different type of control switches and "simmerstat" controls with a larger contact gap and a quicker opening action.

The DC switches would have been fine on AC but not the other way around.
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