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Vintage Audio (record players, hi-fi etc) Amplifiers, speakers, gramophones and other audio equipment.

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Old 15th Jun 2018, 5:28 pm   #1
Edward Huggins
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Default Unrealistic expectations?

I am getting increasing frustrated by the difficulties some (usually young) people are getting themselves into when it comes to getting in to "Vinyl". Youngsters were bringing in their latest ebay purchase after not quite knowing what they were buying. And often from sellers, who did not really quite know what they were selling.

Oh dear, they seem not to know how to use (or transport) them and are often damaged them through misuse. Snapped off tone arm anybody?
They have no appreciation of the risks in using old mono cartridges on their expensive 180gram re-issues. I used to spend much time trying to explain what Stereo is and what Mono is and then not really being sure if they actually "got it".

Then of course there is their reaction to the sound these old players give. No, it will not sound like your Sonos....

I used to give so much unchargeable time and when I eventually did indicate that either a cartridge is now unobtainable, or the likely cost of repairs, I am rewarded with a blank stare.... ."Well, I only paid £50 for it".

Essentially I've now stopped taking these in. My biggest angst really boils down to what we took for granted for all those years, is a now a real minefield for new owners....I fear also that less scrupulous Engineers may well rip them off. Sorry Folks, rant over!
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Last edited by Station X; 15th Jun 2018 at 9:42 pm. Reason: Original derogatory title "The Great Unwashed" changed
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Old 15th Jun 2018, 10:21 pm   #2
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Default Re: Unrealistic expectations?

I personally think that for many the resurgence of Vinyl is a fad, when they realise they have bought something that requires care and attention it will quickly be put in the attic, sold on or perhaps be thrown in the skip.

For those that know what it’s all about they will still be enjoying the medium, the upside is that prices for what’s left may well come down if the demand wanes.

I think the use of new records that the owners use the covers for wall art but the music listened to on mp3 type players says a lot.

For £50 they can buy a cheap MP3 player and speakers that just works or they use the phone they already have. It’s what is expected, I don’t have a problem with that, technology should for the consumer just work and is very often not there with a cheap 50 year old record player.

For the record, oh dear an unintended pun, I have not had any means of playing records for many years and no interest in them.
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Old 15th Jun 2018, 11:13 pm   #3
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Default Re: Unrealistic expectations?

New vinyl enthusiasts, and even some Born Again ones, seem to have two mantras - they want to listen to music of the “period”, which usually means 70s and 80s (when actually interest in hifi was probably at its peak). Music of today is best enjoyed with earbuds from a phone apparently.

The other thing is they claim to actually enjoy record surface noise, clicks, pops, skipping etc I think they are nuts, and they think I’m nuts if I suggest that a crossley or restored dansette is not the last word in record playing quality. I’m sure is a fad, nevertheless I’ve given away quite a few records to new vinylistas, in the hope the interest sticks. Strange to think teenagers are playing the same records I bought when I was their age.

I’ve always played records, all the time, and spent more time and money getting good sound from them than I dare to count!
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Old 15th Jun 2018, 11:13 pm   #4
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Default Re: Unrealistic expectations?

I think you are absolutely right Edward [and Frank]. They don't know and they only want to know what they wan't to hear. With particular exceptions, these are not the original target audience of the Forum which is now [finally] taking a much more realistic view overall about this situation. Start with a few reasonable questions [before just getting overtly technical] and watch indignant posters walk away saying "I didn't come here to be badly treated" ...which is never true and just a passive/aggressive form of emotional blackmail in my opinion.
Ask yourselves what they are actually here for and remember that the Moderators take the strain with people we never even see-a few get through though! It's certainly good to be generous and helpful but nobody should be exploited and it does happen,
usually only with high value items ie record players funnily enough

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Old 16th Jun 2018, 12:03 am   #5
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Default Re: Unrealistic expectations?

First posts may be tidied a bit, but they all appear. The ones you don't see are mainly spam, or the odd one OT for the Forum. Everyone deserves a chance, no-one is born with knowledge and we all had to start somewhere. Pre-Internet there was no choice but to take it stage by stage, and this technology was of course in common usage. It's not surprising that in today's instant gratification world some want to look back to what they see in films or what their forebears experienced, and we should encourage that.

Whether or not the advice is heeded is another story.
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Old 16th Jun 2018, 12:45 am   #6
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Default Re: Unrealistic expectations?

I have sold a few old RPs and mended a few for youngsters - but most of them have been concerned with re-acquainting their dads or grandads with their old vinyl collections. It would be nice to think that there was actual interest in the medium from younger people - but I haven't seen much - save for new forum members seeking to restore old RPs - which is not quite the same thing.
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Old 16th Jun 2018, 1:08 am   #7
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Default Re: Unrealistic expectations?

Has anyone noticed the crazy prices some people are asking for 50s and 60s record players that carry the "Dansette" name? I was a teenager in the mid 1960s and thought that the sound quality produced by the record players from this era was dreadful, the main problems being distortion and poor frequency response. Our neighbours had a new VHF radio and I was amazed at how much better the vinyl pop records sounded over the airwaves.
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Old 16th Jun 2018, 1:48 am   #8
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Default Re: Unrealistic expectations?

If you allow for inflation, some of the prices charged for properly-restored examples of these originally "low-priced and with quality to match" machines are not entirely unreasonable. Even though you can buy a better separates setup new for a similar price, or remarkably cheaply second-hand.
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Old 16th Jun 2018, 6:07 am   #9
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Default Re: Unrealistic expectations?

If the resurgence in interest in Cassette music and recorders does take off as suggested then we should prepare ourselves for more questions in the forum above this one.

Mike
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Old 16th Jun 2018, 6:36 am   #10
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Default Re: Unrealistic expectations?

I view myself as a born again vinylista. Like most, I converted to CD in the mid 80's - remember Philip's strapline "perfect sound, forever"?

Anyway, fast forward through the decades. I have ripped the extensive CD collection to a NAS drive. That is connected through to a high quality streamer. I also have a CD player (bought for £15 here, and replaced the dead laser with a complete module from China for a tenner including shipping).

I have a subscription to Tidal HiFi for access to their music library.

But - and it is a big but - a good 80% of my listening is to vinyl. Via a slate plinth Garrard 401, with an SME IV arm and Denon DL103 cartridge. And a growing vinyl collection mainly from estate sales.

Why? Oddly enough, because even with pretty much state of the art digital, vinyl (at least to my ears) sounds better.

Of course the OP was concerned that younger people who are starting off with vinyl are a bit clueless. In a sense that is inevitable. The only media we had back in the day were vinyl records and tape. Which in practice meant vinyl records - so we learnt quick. Young and new users of vinyl don't have that legacy, have no idea what gear to buy, and need advice. Or just a ten minute lesson in what gear to buy and how to use it.

Another relevant point is the cost of vinyl. High quality 180g pressings are around £30. So I did some research of old PW's and WW's from the early 70's, and corrected the price of a record using the RPI tables. And the corrected price is - £30. So new records are no more expensive in real terms than we were paying 40-odd years ago.

Craig

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Old 16th Jun 2018, 11:03 am   #11
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Default Re: Unrealistic expectations?

“Hey Siri play me Drowse by Queen”. And all physical media was over for me. Sold everything which made well into 4 digits and signed up for a 5 person streaming sub for £15/month which is less than 1/4 of my CD bill a month going back a few years. Not sure why youngsters would want to trade that magic for anything.

I understand the nostalgia and the association but for me it was a terrible time and cost sink when I enjoy listening to the music. Plus I spend a lot of time in the car or on foot which is good music time, unless you forget to bring the right CDs with you and then hours of disappointment driving across Europe (Did that once!). I suspect a lot of the youngsters expect the record player to be a convenient plug and play device which it certainly isn’t and then crawl back to convenience.
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Old 16th Jun 2018, 11:22 am   #12
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Default Re: Unrealistic expectations?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuvistor View Post
I personally think that for many the resurgence of Vinyl is a fad
I used to think that too, but it's been going on for 5 years now and shows no sign of going away. We are still getting millennials joining the forum with knackered Dansettes they've spent a fortune on.

I couldn't wait to move on from my Elizabethan Pop-10 in the late 60s, and all my teenage friends felt the same way. I bought an SP25 and a Sinclair amp, and used a couple of old radios as speakers as I couldn't afford proper ones. The fetishisation of valve portable record players today is a mystery to me.
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Old 16th Jun 2018, 11:57 am   #13
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Default Re: Unrealistic expectations?

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Originally Posted by MrBungle View Post
“Hey Siri play me Drowse by Queen”. And all physical media was over for me.
The newcomers can do that too, and probably do. That's missing the point of this thread, it's the nostalgia they want. A record physically revolving in front of their eyes. The height of the Fi is immaterial, it's the experience.
Like corded telephones, box record players were left behind with improving technology and increasing personal wealth, but the urge to experience them lingers, and long may it live on.
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Old 16th Jun 2018, 12:17 pm   #14
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Default Re: Unrealistic expectations?

I think it's rather unrealistic to expect younger people to have the first idea what buying and using an old record player is all about!
All the tech they have been in contact with would have worked perfectly and become obsolete before it ever went wrong.
It may be obvious to us how to use a record player but then we've grown up with them!

Young people have probably never experienced really bad sound quality. The worst they will have heard is MP3's listened to on earphones. They will never have heard Radio Luxembourg fading into total distortion on MW or a record played a thousand times on a cheap record player with a blunt stylus and a one valve amp!
Having been told of the 'wonderful sound of vinyl' and the 'warm' valve sound, hearing a Dansette struggling to play a record after 50 years in someone's loft, must come as something of a shock!

Streaming music is great but there is nothing tangible, nothing to own, nothing to look at, no artwork.
That's what has driven the resurgence in vinyl:- for someone who has only ever streamed music, to actually own and hold a vinyl record must be so much more rewarding- even if they still listen to an MP3!!

All the best
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Old 16th Jun 2018, 12:38 pm   #15
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Default Re: Unrealistic expectations?

Yes in fact it's a bit debatable whether some people actually play the records or not, such is the style appeal, even when they actually have a record player. The guys at my local independent shop [Music's Not Dead] confirm they sell records to people who want a display item It's possible that the perception of a 12" vinyl LP has switched from a cumbersome outdated technology to a cool Art Object ....and look what happens in the Art Market generally.

A weekend glossy did a feature on upgrading a house in St Leonards recently.
[As I was laughed at for predicting twenty years ago, Hastings and St Leonards is now "New Brighton" but not the one across from Liverpool].
The living room had special shelves built in so the vinyl "collection" can be displayed like paintings, very useful in a shop!

Notwithstanding that younger people have always re-discovered vinyl every few years or so and that there are many new real converts to a tactile medium with it's associated music the retro craze has inflated things into a fashion. Overall, I think it's more comparable to ripped jeans, men with glamorous backwoods beards and carrying bottles of water. I went to a wedding in West Sussex recently. With a change of costume, you could have been in the American Civil War

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Old 16th Jun 2018, 1:18 pm   #16
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Default Re: Unrealistic expectations?

Quote:
Originally Posted by paulsherwin View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuvistor View Post
I personally think that for many the resurgence of Vinyl is a fad
I used to think that too, but it's been going on for 5 years now and shows no sign of going away. We are still getting millennials joining the forum with knackered Dansettes they've spent a fortune on.

I couldn't wait to move on from my Elizabethan Pop-10 in the late 60s, and all my teenage friends felt the same way. I bought an SP25 and a Sinclair amp, and used a couple of old radios as speakers as I couldn't afford proper ones. The fetishisation of valve portable record players today is a mystery to me.
There are two tribes of such fetishists:, the Dansette-buying new wave, and the audiophiles spending thousands on their own weird stuff.

That leaves everything else for US!

We get all the record players except for those made by Dansette

We get all sorts of good gear from the golden years of hifi, though not Garrard 301s and Thorens TD124s.

We get loads of old radios and radiograms, but we need to use triode connected 6L6s to fill the empty output stage sockets.

We get Revoxes, Quad 303s and 405s but IIs are a stretch.

We can't afford pre-war tellies, but we can have HROs AND a book on the secret listeners.

The Millennials are mining junk, the audiophiles are atop asphyxiatingly high ivory (probably unicorn ivory) towers. WE get the rest of the world to play with.

Suits me!

David
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Old 16th Jun 2018, 4:19 pm   #17
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Default Re: Unrealistic expectations?

When a kid, (and I mean anyone under 25) discovers a record player or any vintage music playing device for the first time they marvel at it in awe. How does that work, it has no screen, no memory or processor, wow a miracle machine.

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Old 16th Jun 2018, 5:18 pm   #18
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Default Re: Unrealistic expectations?

Quote:
The newcomers can do that too, and probably do. That's missing the point of this thread, it's the nostalgia they want. A record physically revolving in front of their eyes. The height of the Fi is immaterial, it's the experience.

I completely agree, just because not all newbies grasp the dedication to our accrued knowledge & the frustration it may cause some members.


In a way, it reminds me when my father was trying to teach me how to swim, most of the time I sank like a builder's brick but I showed plenty of enthusiasm. At some time my father must have had he's doubts whether I'd achieve a basic ability to swim or, in the long run, I'd be an Olympic champion but he never showed it.

Or, have I got it wrong, as some seem to be suggesting with un skilled newbies and, so should have my father done: "Let 'em Drown" ?
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Old 16th Jun 2018, 6:07 pm   #19
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Default Re: Unrealistic expectations?

For me There is something magic about playing a record. I’m 51 now but fortunately have always dragged my teenage record collection around as I’ve moved over the years and have always had a record player. I have a good CD player and a server but I still mostly listen to vinyl. Not 100% sure why, partly I’m contrarian by nature and digital is just too easy and soul less. I like the ritual of playing a record and looking at the cover reminds me of when and where I got it and who I was with, I just don’t get that with digital. Records are like a scrap book of bits of my life. I’m thankful for the revival if it keeps records being made. Most of my gear is second hand or I’ve modified it and it’s a great time to be buying bits of old hifi as with care there are so many bargains still out there in the “mid range”. The good thing about t’internet was it taught me how to set my deck up properly. I shudder to think how I set up my Fisher “studio Standard” deck as a teen ...the wear is still easy to hear on some of my collection. Properly set up vinyl still sounds really good to me. Difficult to know if many kids today can ever relate to hardware in the same way we did as everything is software and phones. That said some are building amazing things with arduino, raspberry pi and 3D printers so I guess all is not lost :0)
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Old 16th Jun 2018, 6:13 pm   #20
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Default Re: Unrealistic expectations?

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Or, have I got it wrong, as some seem to be suggesting with un skilled newbies and, so should have my father done: "Let 'em Drown" ?
I don’t think the forum lets anyone “ drown”, it’s more of the poster not expecting the fixing of record players to be difficult and they give up.

There are new members who put a lot of effort into getting the players working with lots of advice from the forum.

That’s how everything is, some people are more determined than others to achieve a goal and we all have different priorities in life.
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