UK Vintage Radio Repair and Restoration Powered By Google Custom Search Vintage Radio Service Data

Go Back   UK Vintage Radio Repair and Restoration Discussion Forum > Specific Vintage Equipment > Vintage Telephony and Telecomms

Notices

Vintage Telephony and Telecomms Vintage Telephones, Telephony and Telecomms Equipment

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 26th May 2019, 6:11 am   #21
QQVO6/40
Pentode
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Newcastle, Australia
Posts: 203
Default Re: "Butt" 'phone

More pics.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	P1010107.jpg
Views:	30
Size:	99.8 KB
ID:	183861   Click image for larger version

Name:	P1010108.jpg
Views:	28
Size:	97.3 KB
ID:	183862   Click image for larger version

Name:	P1010112.jpg
Views:	27
Size:	93.1 KB
ID:	183863  
QQVO6/40 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th May 2019, 8:43 am   #22
dagskarlsen
Hexode
 
dagskarlsen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Hakadal, Norway
Posts: 416
Default Re: "Butt" 'phone

Here are some used in Norway:
The banana was used in the 70ies, later came the blue and orange ones. The las tone was made in Oslo-telefonanlegg (O.T.A.) by the workers there from the beginning, and until the banana was introduced.

dsk

Edit
Uploaded 2 more pictures, the diagram is from the Banana No induction coil, just resistors. It was working better with just transmitter and receiver in series!
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	but-set.jpg
Views:	30
Size:	71.9 KB
ID:	183869   Click image for larger version

Name:	butt.jpg
Views:	30
Size:	72.2 KB
ID:	183870   Click image for larger version

Name:	butt2.jpg
Views:	32
Size:	66.0 KB
ID:	183871   Click image for larger version

Name:	ban.jpg
Views:	22
Size:	33.2 KB
ID:	183880  

Last edited by dagskarlsen; 26th May 2019 at 8:57 am. Reason: adding info
dagskarlsen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th May 2019, 8:46 am   #23
dagskarlsen
Hexode
 
dagskarlsen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Hakadal, Norway
Posts: 416
Default Re: "Butt" 'phone

Two of the latest, blus a dial speed test set used on an exchange. one fast, and one slow dial+++
The wooden box telephone was used to test cables while splicing.

dsk
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	butt2015-04-13_07-27-26_432.jpg
Views:	25
Size:	47.1 KB
ID:	183872   Click image for larger version

Name:	buttIMG_20150417_184225.jpg
Views:	25
Size:	42.0 KB
ID:	183873   Click image for larger version

Name:	test.jpg
Views:	26
Size:	93.4 KB
ID:	183875   Click image for larger version

Name:	test2.jpg
Views:	24
Size:	86.9 KB
ID:	183876  

Last edited by dagskarlsen; 26th May 2019 at 8:51 am.
dagskarlsen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th May 2019, 9:11 am   #24
Dave Moll
Dekatron
 
Dave Moll's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: West Cumbria (CA13), UK
Posts: 4,069
Default Re: "Butt" 'phone

Quote:
Originally Posted by QQVO6/40 View Post
Dave, I have 3 of the same butts that you have. 2 of them have the microphone cover so typical of the military phones and the 3rd one is of the original production run. I was told many years ago that the microphone cover was changed to the military style as there was breakage problems with the original. I can accept this as it would be tough on them getting thrown into a tool box regularly. Having used both styles myself I found the original cup type was better to use where there was a noisy background such as when working on a street pillar on a noisy road. Can cup the hand around the mouthpiece as well but not always easy when cable jointing.
That would certainly make sense. Maybe the fragility issue of mouth cups led to the use of the alternative design in field telephones as well.
__________________
Mending is better than Ending (cf Brave New World by Aldous Huxley)
Dave Moll is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th May 2019, 10:56 am   #25
Refugee
Dekatron
 
Refugee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Worksop, Nottinghamshire, UK.
Posts: 4,033
Default Re: "Butt" 'phone

Some years ago a workmate of mine bought/acquired one of those modern ones.
He said that it had a function that allowed him to use call back even if the number was witheld.
Would this be true?
Refugee is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 26th May 2019, 11:50 am   #26
QQVO6/40
Pentode
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Newcastle, Australia
Posts: 203
Default Re: "Butt" 'phone

Hello all.
Nice pics dagskarlsen.
It seems that many countries around the world manufactured their own butt phones.
I know that the PMG in Australia designed and made their own butts. I do not have examples of two other butts designed and made in Australia. Both are electronic. The Digicall and the Ruggebutt. I did not feel that these did the job that I wanted to do so I did not pursue either of them. Both of these phones were electronic and did not have internal batteries so needed a minimum of 5 Volts of line supply after the line was looped. The older dial phones would drop the line voltage to below 5 volts when off hook/looped. This means that these two electronic phones can not reliably work in parallel with the older dial phones. Sorry if I use terms not familiar to some people. To "loop" a line means to put it off hook. To "release" a line means to put it back on hook.
Refugee.
I do not know of a butt that will do ring back. However there are a few bag sets/test phones that have a function where they will generate their own ring voltage and could be used to ring the subscriber's phone.
I hope this has helped a bit.
Cheers, Robert.
QQVO6/40 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th May 2019, 1:18 pm   #27
Refugee
Dekatron
 
Refugee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Worksop, Nottinghamshire, UK.
Posts: 4,033
Default Re: "Butt" 'phone

The DTMF chips have lead outs for 16 keys and not all are connected on domestic phones.
The guy reckoned that one of the extra keys could activate call back even if the calling number was witheld.
Refugee is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 26th May 2019, 2:55 pm   #28
QQVO6/40
Pentode
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Newcastle, Australia
Posts: 203
Default Re: "Butt" 'phone

Hello Refugee.
Not sure what you mean with the previous post. The late model butt phones have a call back feature which is the same as redial which is on most of modern phones these days.
The sub's phone does not need to send any information other that the number being dialed or other functions because the sub's line is peculiar to that sub. If the sub has blocked caller ID then that information is not sent from the exchange to the called number and so there is no caller ID shown on the called phone.
If I want to know a customer number for a particular pair I can call cable plans and they will tell me or I can look it up on the computer private system or if I have access to the pair I can ring a certain phone number and there is an automated system that will tell me the customer number.
Have you witnessed this trick being done? I have heard over the years a lot of things that are just not possible.
All of this is really just history in Australia as we have gone to a fully digital system now. The old Public Switched Telephone Network (PSTN) no longer exists in Australia. It is all digital with the National Broadband Network.
The only place that the butt phones can be of any use is with private networks or within domestic homes where they have the modem set up to deliver decadic calling using heritage phones.
I hope I haven't given you a headache.
Cheers, Robert.
QQVO6/40 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th May 2019, 3:09 pm   #29
Dave Moll
Dekatron
 
Dave Moll's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: West Cumbria (CA13), UK
Posts: 4,069
Default Re: "Butt" 'phone

What Refugee is referring to is picking up the caller's ID and ringing that number. It is fairly easy for a 'phone to store that ID (the caller's number) and return the call by ringing that number. The bit which requires specialist circuitry is to extract that ID as it is stored somewhere in the network when the caller has suppressed communication of the ID to the called party's 'phone. I hope this clarifies the matter.

Incidentally, there is quite an interesting Wikipedia article about DTMF, mentioning the four extra tones (A, B, C, D), though giving no indication of how they may be used.
__________________
Mending is better than Ending (cf Brave New World by Aldous Huxley)
Dave Moll is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th May 2019, 3:44 pm   #30
QQVO6/40
Pentode
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Newcastle, Australia
Posts: 203
Default Re: "Butt" 'phone

I have no knowledge of how the system works in the UK but in Australia the calling party number is available if caller ID is not barred. If the called party has a phone that shows caller ID then a return call can be made. I have not seen any butt phones that have that facility but they may exist.
To get the number of the caller who had barred caller ID would need access to the computer system that runs the system and does the billing. That sort of stuff is heavily guarded here in Australia as there is The Privacy Act which is federal legislation and the legal implications for the phone companies would be horrendous if they were to allow any way of avoiding caller ID by anything less than a court order to a law enforcement organization.
Doing installs and cable work for us it was "just don't go there at all" for any of the weird stuff. My ability to earn a living was much more important. Many years ago I had the company of a couple of Federal Police with me when I was doing a cable cut over in Sydney to make sure I didn't do anything naughty. There was a couple of officers in my mates pit further up the street. We were cutting over an 1800 pair paper insulated subs cable. Seems there was a few sensitive consular phone lines in that cable. I didn't mind as the coffee and food they bought for us was pretty good. Bit sad when we were finished and they left.
OK I do not want to get off topic with this stuff.
Cheers, Robert.
QQVO6/40 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th May 2019, 1:59 am   #31
Refugee
Dekatron
 
Refugee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Worksop, Nottinghamshire, UK.
Posts: 4,033
Default Re: "Butt" 'phone

Dave Moll has got closer to what the guy told me.
He described the equipment as a "test phone" and I got the impression that 1471 was dialed to retrieve the calling number and then one of the extra 4 keys was pressed to retrieve the witheld number.
It was back in the 1990s and may well not work these days.
Refugee is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 27th May 2019, 8:53 am   #32
Dave Moll
Dekatron
 
Dave Moll's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: West Cumbria (CA13), UK
Posts: 4,069
Default Re: "Butt" 'phone

Mind you, even if the function does still work, it would probably be an offence to use it without proper authorisation, as per the situation in Australia, especially since the introduction of General Data Protection Regulation strengthened the protection of personal data in UK.
__________________
Mending is better than Ending (cf Brave New World by Aldous Huxley)
Dave Moll is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th May 2019, 10:31 am   #33
julie_m
Dekatron
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Derby, UK.
Posts: 7,226
Default Re: "Butt" 'phone

If somebody is calling me, that means they know my telephone number; so by simple reciprocity, I should have a right to know their number. Withholding it is basically the telephonical equivalent of accosting someone in the street from behind, while dressed in black from head to toe.

Anonymous calls are blocked on my land line, but my mobile provider won't provide the service so I have to improvise: "We are not at home to anonymous cowards. If your business is important, you may call back without withholding your caller ID."
__________________
If I have seen further than others, it is because I was standing on a pile of failed experiments.
julie_m is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 27th May 2019, 3:40 pm   #34
rambo1152
Octode
 
rambo1152's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Manchester, UK.
Posts: 1,223
Default Re: "Butt" 'phone

One feature that bit phones tend to have that is absent on ordinary phones is the ability to monitor the line for speech and other noises without applying a DC loop. A silent wire-tap in fact.

A couple of thoughts about withheld numbers.
The number is available throughout the calls transit in the network, it is accompanied by a flag that in effect says to the terminating telco, "Here is the callers presentation number, please don't pass it to your customer".

No doubt OFCOM and other national regulators mandate that telcos honour the withheld flag, but it's worth pointing out, until August last year when they were withdrawn, I had a contiguous block of ten UK geographic DDIs from a VoIP provider who did not honour the flag and passed the CLI regardless.

Less controversially, many people who, rather than prefixing every number with 141, have all calls "withheld", often don't know that they can release their number when calling friends & family by prefixing 1470 before the dialled number or including the prefix in stored numbers. Certainly works on Openreach's exchanges.
__________________
--
Graham.
G3ZVT
rambo1152 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th May 2019, 4:27 pm   #35
Dave Moll
Dekatron
 
Dave Moll's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: West Cumbria (CA13), UK
Posts: 4,069
Default Re: "Butt" 'phone

Quote:
Originally Posted by rambo1152 View Post
One feature that bit phones tend to have that is absent on ordinary phones is the ability to monitor the line for speech and other noises without applying a DC loop. A silent wire-tap in fact.
This feature is also present on other linesman's 'phones such as the 704 and later 286
__________________
Mending is better than Ending (cf Brave New World by Aldous Huxley)
Dave Moll is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th May 2019, 7:07 pm   #36
Dave Moll
Dekatron
 
Dave Moll's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: West Cumbria (CA13), UK
Posts: 4,069
Default Re: "Butt" 'phone

Apologies, after checking one of my 704s, I find I have misremembered - it doesn't have a "monitor" function, just "CB" or "LB" for communicating with, respectively, the exchange or the subscriber's end.
__________________
Mending is better than Ending (cf Brave New World by Aldous Huxley)
Dave Moll is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th May 2019, 7:13 pm   #37
TonyDuell
Dekatron
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Biggin Hill, London, UK.
Posts: 3,077
Default Re: "Butt" 'phone

The telephone 283 (a butt set) and as you say the 286B both have this line monitoring facility. I happen to have both of them here...
TonyDuell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th May 2019, 7:27 pm   #38
Dave Moll
Dekatron
 
Dave Moll's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: West Cumbria (CA13), UK
Posts: 4,069
Default Re: "Butt" 'phone

As, of course, does the gool ol' 280 (the rubber butt).
__________________
Mending is better than Ending (cf Brave New World by Aldous Huxley)
Dave Moll is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th May 2019, 7:38 pm   #39
TonyDuell
Dekatron
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Biggin Hill, London, UK.
Posts: 3,077
Default Re: "Butt" 'phone

So it does (using the impulse contact supressor capacitor. How ingenious). I'd not spotted that and I have a Telephone 280 hanging up alongside the 283 here.
TonyDuell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th May 2019, 9:21 pm   #40
Dave Moll
Dekatron
 
Dave Moll's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: West Cumbria (CA13), UK
Posts: 4,069
Default Re: "Butt" 'phone

Needless to say, "gool" should have read "good"! That one slipped through my proof read.
__________________
Mending is better than Ending (cf Brave New World by Aldous Huxley)
Dave Moll is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 11:44 pm.


All information and advice on this forum is subject to the WARNING AND DISCLAIMER located at https://www.vintage-radio.net/rules.html.
Failure to heed this warning may result in death or serious injury to yourself and/or others.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright ©2002 - 2019, Paul Stenning.