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Old 6th Jul 2019, 4:24 am   #1
FStephenMasek
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Default Source for HMV decals

Is there a good source for the HMV water-slide decals? Radio Daze in the USA is an excellent source for many, and will custom-make them, so I may only need a good image of the decal for the top of my HMV 468.
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Old 8th Jul 2019, 3:42 pm   #2
DonaldStott
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Default Re: Source for HMV decals

There is an eBay seller based in Peru (!) but the prices are prohibitively expensive, especially when you add p&p.

Some original scans can be found here on Graham Barber's excellent Restore-A-Gram site (RIP Graham) but there are known limitations to using ink-jet/laser printers : -

http://www.restore-a-gram.co.uk/decals/4591836971

Forum member David G4EBT has done some excellent work in this area but I'll let him explain the complications with water-slide decals.

Don't know if there is any potential for a bulk buy at discount prices from, for example, Radio Daze in the USA?
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Old 8th Jul 2019, 8:21 pm   #3
Audio1950
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Default Re: Source for HMV decals

These are the ones from Peru. They are maybe a bit expensive, but they are excellent quality.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/HMV-102-P...AAAOSw5e5ca1ob

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Old 9th Jul 2019, 8:44 am   #4
David G4EBT
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Default Re: Source for HMV decals

I've no idea what an actual original HMV logo looks like.

However, to my eyes, the two logos from Peru (the rectangular one and the circular one) look really quite gaudy, with solid bright green and red colours. Maybe that's how they should be and are exact replicas, faithful to the original designs, but to me, they don't look 'vintage'. I'm not being critical - just expressing a view, which might be a mistaken view at that. I've attached below a scan of an HMV logo which another forum member uploaded some time in the past which I think looks more authentic.

I imagine that the Peru decals will have been screen-printed or created by some commercial process - not on a domestic ink-jet or laser printer. I appreciate that Stephen (the O.P.) isn't asking for a tutorial on how to make waterslide decals (what we call 'transfers' in the UK) - he's asking if there is a source of ready made ones, but some comments might help.

Some logos lend themselves to water-slide decals - sadly, others don't.

The part of the HMV logo which is the 'picture frame' at pic 1 below, with Nipper in the middle would, I think, print quite well on white decal paper, but not the separate lines of text because the space around the lettering would need to be transparent. Sadly, clear ink-jet (or laser) decal paper, when applied to a wooden cabinet - just like dial scans when applied to glass - will be far too 'wishy washy' and feint.

The only water slide decals I've had success in creating have been either where they can be printed on white decal paper and applied to a wooden cabinet or metal dial panel -example being the square Bush logo, the Wartime Civilian Receiver top label and the Ferranti 145 dial shown below. Clear decal paper can be used where the decal is applied to a solid painted panel, such as the Wartime Civilian Radio dial at pic 4 below, which I created in MS 'Paint' and printed on clear ink-jet decal paper to apply to the re-sprayed dial.

As we know, we can't print white on a domestic printer, but provided a decal can be printed on white decal paper, that isn't a problem - white or shaded white will come out well ('Nipper' for example). Likewise we can't print gold or silver, but on an ink-jet printer we can get close to fooling the eye, as the Bush logo below will show.

I've printed waterslide dial decals from excellent scans of various DAC90A designs, the KB FB10 'Toaster', and Murphy U198 on clear decal paper which look fine while still on the backing paper, buy when applied to the rear of the glass (printed n reverse of course), they're an abysmal failure as they're far too 'wishy washy'.

Pic 1: Scan of HMV logo. (From another forum member).
Pic 2: A strip of four Bush labels printed on white decal ink-jet paper.
Pic 3: Wartime Civilian Receiver top label (scan provided by another forum member) on white ink-jet decal paper.
Pic 4: 'WCR' dial printed on transparent ink-jet decal paper applied to the painted metal dial panel.
Pic 5: Ferranti '145' dial scan printed on white ink jet decal paper and applied to the metal dial plate.

This topic crops up with regularity on the forum, so rather than repeat too much of what's been said before, these links might be of interest:

https://www.vintage-radio.net/forum/...lide+transfers

https://www.vintage-radio.net/forum/...lide+transfers

https://www.vintage-radio.net/forum/...lide+transfers

https://www.vintage-radio.net/forum/...lide+transfers

I hope that's of interest, albeit it doesn't answer the O.Ps initial question, 'where can he get HMV decals from?'

The answer to that - up to now - seems to be 'only from Peru'.
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Old 9th Jul 2019, 9:16 am   #5
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Default Re: Source for HMV decals

Quote:
Originally Posted by David G4EBT View Post
I've no idea what an actual original HMV logo looks like.

However, to my eyes, the two logos from Peru (the rectangular one and the circular one) look really quite gaudy, with solid bright green and red colours. Maybe that's how they should be and are exact replicas, faithful to the original designs, but to me, they don't look 'vintage'. I'm not being critical - just expressing a view, which might be a mistaken view at that. I've attached below a scan of an HMV logo which another forum member uploaded some time in the past which I think looks more authentic.
Thanks David

I hoped that you would Post something here - very informative as usual.

Here is a picture of the the Nipper logo from my HMV 101 Portable Gramophone - interesting to compare and contrast with the offerings from Restore-A-Gram and Peru: -

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Old 9th Jul 2019, 11:39 am   #6
David G4EBT
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Default Re: Source for HMV decals

THanks Alistair.

That looks very similar to the image I posted in post 4 above, which appears to have originated at the link you gave in post 2, to the late Graham Barber's Restore-a-Gram site and confirms my view about the ones from Peru. (Graham alluded to the limitations of creating water-slide decals on a home printer).
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Old 9th Jul 2019, 12:16 pm   #7
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Default Re: Source for HMV decals

In my past 'Radiocraft' days, I had some success printing HMV transfers on white water slide paper using brown in the 'clear' areas.

Inevitably, this entailed several print trials, both to tone down the brightness of the logo itself and to get the shade and tint of brown right. The adjustments were carried out in Paint Shop Pro. The area of brown was small. The eye readily accepted it and didn't spot the lack of grain.


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Old 9th Jul 2019, 6:29 pm   #8
David G4EBT
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Default Re: Source for HMV decals

I did something similar with a 'BTH' logo printed on white decal paper from a scan of an original decal applied to the mahogany cabinet of a crystal set. In fact the wooden area around the letters when applied to a cabinet top was quite a close match to the cabinet on which it was applied, so tinkering about with the brown background became unnecessary in the end. (The decal was cut around the outer perimeter of the circle before applying it).
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Old 10th Jul 2019, 8:55 pm   #9
David G4EBT
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Default Re: Source for HMV decals

A bit more on this.

Gary Tempest saw the thread and e-mailed me a picture of an HMV logo from a metal panel on a radiogram which hadn't been exposed to light. I've attached it below. Interestingly (to me at any rate), looking closely at the text, the words appear to be on individual decals with a narrow dark brown border around each word. It would be perfectly feasible, albeit a little fiddly, to create decals for the words, cut them out and position them as desired, with the 'picture frame' of 'Nipper' as a separate decal. White decal paper would be needed and for anyone not well practised in applying water-slide decals, it would make sense to print a sheet full to allow for inevitable failures.

As I've mentioned elsewhere, though they're called 'water-slide' you don't slide the decal off the backing paper or it will most likely wrinkle up. When you're satisfied that the backing paper is wetted through and the decal will slide freely between finger and thumb, you wet the surface to which it to be applied, hold the decal (still on the backing paper) in the position where you wish to apply it, then slide the backing paper off from beneath the decal while gently smoothing the decal down, making sure that you don't stretch it. Then gently smooth down the decal with a paper towel t remove all the water. Once dried, the adhere really well.

Some time ago, Gary managed to find someone in the USA who was able to print off a sheet of HMV decals for him on an 'ALPS' printer. Sadly, the guy who had the printer no longer does that, and the sheet on nine have all gone. A picture of one is appended below.

To my eyes, these two images look rather more realistic than do those from Peru.

Hope that may be of help and interest.
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Old 10th Jul 2019, 11:47 pm   #10
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Default Re: Source for HMV decals

The trouble with that latest repro is that the text is utterly wrong; even the quotes 'round “His Master's Voice” are straight instead of curled, as is the apostrophe.
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Old 11th Jul 2019, 7:54 am   #11
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Default Re: Source for HMV decals

Here is the remainder of the logo from my HMV 1360 radio.

I'd be very interested in a bulk order , with other members , of a genuine reproduction waterslide logo.

Anyone else?
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Old 11th Jul 2019, 12:06 pm   #12
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Default Re: Source for HMV decals

Quote:
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I'd be very interested in a bulk order , with other members , of a genuine reproduction waterslide logo.

Anyone else?
Count me in if you are willing to act as the go-between for a bulk order.

The challenge now is to find a source for the "correct" genuine reproduction waterslide logo taking on board the points raised by ThePillenwerfer above - attention to detail, well done.
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Old 11th Jul 2019, 2:04 pm   #13
ColinTheAmpMan1
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Default Re: Source for HMV decals

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThePillenwerfer View Post
The trouble with that latest repro is that the text is utterly wrong; even the quotes 'round “His Master's Voice” are straight instead of curled, as is the apostrophe.
That prompted me to do a bit of critical examination of the offerings. If I am looking at it correctly, the original HMV logo has a grammatical error, in that the quotation marks are "99" at the front and "66" at the back. I was taught at school that it was "66" and "99".

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Old 11th Jul 2019, 2:28 pm   #14
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Default Re: Source for HMV decals

Bit of a long shot but Tudor Rees used to have these decals in his catalogue years ago. I wonder if any forum member bought some and have still have them but long forgotten..... this might just jog some memories.

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Old 11th Jul 2019, 3:11 pm   #15
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Default Re: Source for HMV decals

The other thing to consider is how the genuine logo may have changed over time.

The picture of the original in post 9 shows Ltd flat whereas Graham's repro has the td superscript. I can't see him having done this unless he was copying something with the same typography. The same could apply to the 99/66 quotation mark 'error' — it may have been how HMV did it on at least some labels. Actually they are neither 99 nor 66 but a mirror image of those shapes. If that is an error at least it's one that's very easy to fix.
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Old 11th Jul 2019, 5:48 pm   #16
David G4EBT
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Default Re: Source for HMV decals

The problem with this is that the setup costs and tiny volume that would be sold would make the price prohibitive, especially considering that the radio or other HMV equipment to which the decal will be attached will not be sufficiently rare or valuable to warrant the cost. Setting aside whether or not the ones from Peru are sufficiently authentic looking replicas, for the work that's gone into producing them and the printing method and equipment used, the price of c £16.91 + £4.40 post isn't unreasonable. (Post free if three or more are ordered).

That said, the decal costs probably half as much, if not more, then the value of the set to which it will be applied. I can't imagine many impecunious UK restorers being prepared to pay even the Peru prices - let alone more. The Peru company have 100% satisfactory feedback on 102 sales, but that doesn't tell the whole story. That's across the whole range of decals they produce, very few of which are HMVs.

There are companies in the UK who make waterslide decals for such things as classic motorbike restorations. It's one thing making a set of decals costing maybe £100 for the restoration of a BSA Gold Flash or Triumph Bonneville worth £,0000s, where the costs of the decals would be incidental. It's quite another thing to create, manufacture and market decals for low value radios.

There's a reason why - so it seems - only one firm in the world seems to be selling these.

Interesting to read their comments about the setup and production techniques:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/HMV-102-P...w5e5ca1ob#rwid

There are plenty of UK firms who will make bespoke water-slide decals, but as might be imagined, printing a simple decal with say black lettering on a white background (which could be done at home on an ink jet printer), may not be too costly, but with multicoloured decals with gold lettering, and where there are set-up costs, the price quickly escalates. Probably nine HMV decals would fit on an A4 sheet, and at best, I can't imagine a bulk order consisting on ten sheets or more, which is nothing for a print run.

If anyone wants to start the ball rolling, here are a few leads to follow up for anyone so inclined:

http://www.cbtransfers.co.uk/

http://www.precisionlabels.com/colours.html

https://www.slik-screeners.co.uk/pro...-and-labels-1/

I'll watch developments with interest!
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Old 12th Jul 2019, 8:46 am   #17
David G4EBT
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Default Re: Source for HMV decals

Radio Daze in the USA carries an extensive range of decals - mostly for American and Canadian sets, but some, (Marconi for example), of interest ot GB restorers. He will also make custom decals so could perhaps quote for HMV if anyone cares to follow that up.

Some links here:

http://www.radiodaze.com/custom-grap...phicsyear2017/

http://www.radiodaze.com/decals-62/

http://www.radiodaze.com/decals-41/

He supplies dials too - for example, a dial for the KB FB10 ‘Toaster' ($37.93).

http://www.radiodaze.com/kolster-bra...-glass-dg-403/

No doubt the price reflects the development and production costs, not heped by the poor $/£ exchange rate, but is unlikely to appeal to anyone who - like me - has never paid more than a tenner for an FB10. Same cost/benefit conundrum as with decals - can cost more than the value of the set, not forgetting that some restorers won't be able to afford the cost (in addition to other restoration costs), or may be unwilling to fork out, following the philosophy of:

Hear all, see all say nowt,
Eat up, sup up, pay nowt,
And if ever thou does owt for nowt,
Allus do it for thissen.
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Old 12th Jul 2019, 4:06 pm   #18
Uncle Bulgaria
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Default Re: Source for HMV decals

Waterslide decals and many other types are available from H. Lloyd Cycles. I've used them to make custom bicycle decals so if you have a specific request it could well be worth talking to them. When I've spoken to them they've been very helpful.

https://h-lloyd-cycles.myshopify.com/
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