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Old 20th Aug 2018, 10:04 am   #1
Paul Stenning
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Default Vintage Radio Service Data DVD

Quote:
Originally Posted by D Cassidy View Post
Hello.
What Paul has scanned and put on the disc is his intellectual copyright. He won't own the copyright of the original material as he won't have the rights. I'm sure he can explain it better than myself. I was told a few years ago that someone else has the rights to Trader & ERT, not sure who it is though or even if the information is correct.
Yes I claim copyright on the compilation, cataloguing etc and on the PDF files I make (many of which have scans that needed some tweaking to clean up damage), but not on the original material. And I charge to try to cover some of the time I spend doing all this, as well as the hosting for that site and this forum.

When I first started doing this I tried to find out who owned the copyright of the various manuals and service sheets so I could request permission, but got nowhere. So I decided to go ahead anyway and if anyone complained I would remove their data. So far nobody has, and the archives for two manufacturers have requested copies of all their manuals I have because they don't have them themselves.

Scanning, editing, PDFing and cataloguing thousands of manuals takes a lot of time, and there are plenty of more profitable or enjoyable things I could be doing with that time. But I do it because I want to make the information available to other collectors.

I do get annoyed when other people remove the watermarks and upload data obtained from me elsewhere for free, or even worse when they charge for it or use it on somewhere like Radiomuseum where they gain points from it. Basically it is stealing my hard work and depriving me of the payment for it.

Radiomuseum do say they will reject data obtained from me but I bet there's still loads of it up there. The problem is there is no way I can check.
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Old 20th Aug 2018, 10:16 am   #2
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Default Re: re Radiomuseum downloads

Hello Paul.
Thank you for the explanation.
I think it's in poor taste that people go to the trouble of removing watermarks and other devious methods for their gain.
It's mayhem sometimes on the internet and you really cannot tell what's genuine or not.
Keep up the good work though its appreciated.
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Old 20th Aug 2018, 10:22 am   #3
John M0GLN
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Default Re: re Radiomuseum downloads

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Originally Posted by Paul Stenning View Post

I do get annoyed when other people remove the watermarks and upload data obtained from me elsewhere for free, or even worse when they charge for it or use it on somewhere like Radiomuseum where they gain points from it. Basically it is stealing my hard work and depriving me of the payment for it.

Radiomuseum do say they will reject data obtained from me but I bet there's still loads of it up there. The problem is there is no way I can check.
I watched a TV program ( probably early on this year ) on maps, and they said that the various street map publishers would make almost undetectable changes to their maps to enable them to see if competitors had produced bootleg copies.

John
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Old 20th Aug 2018, 10:58 am   #4
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Default Re: re Radiomuseum downloads

I can recognise many of my scanned manuals. Even things like creases, damage and width of margins make them identifiable, before we consider other more subtle clues. There are plenty of things that can be moved slightly without affecting the accuracy.

I have contacted a few websites that have copies, some said they would remove them and did, some said they would but didn't, and some didn't reply or were uncontactable. With Radiomuseum I don't know how I could even check as I am not a member. In any event it would take ages to go through them all and provide enough proof to satisfy them. Generally it is more hassle than it's worth.

I paid a friend (as a contractor, he's self employed but was unable to do his normal work at the time) to do a lot of scanning for my new DVD-ROMs. We agreed a very fair rate, but that is still several thousand pounds I have paid out and won't see back until they are finished and I sell enough. People who steal work don't see or consider things like that.
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Old 20th Aug 2018, 11:06 am   #5
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Default Re: re Radiomuseum downloads

Any time scale for the new DVD?
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Old 20th Aug 2018, 11:19 am   #6
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Default Re: re Radiomuseum downloads

Not yet, as it depends on other work and priorities. Most of the scanning is done, editing is well advanced, and PDF creation and indexing is ongoing.

I would like to say early next year, but don't hold me to that as plenty of other suggested dates have been and gone!

There will be two DVD-ROMs, a second volume of radio/audio and a volume of television. Depending on the amount of television data (I already have 3.8GB as completed PDFs) it may well be two volumes of television, perhaps one of colour and one of mono.

All data will also be added to the Instant Download system, probably maintaining the 1.99 pricing. That website is seriously overdue a redesign too, but it will have to wait until later.
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Old 20th Aug 2018, 11:27 am   #7
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Default Re: re Radiomuseum downloads

Understand completely, thought I may be buying myself a Christmas present, hopefully a birthday one later next year.
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Old 20th Aug 2018, 11:33 am   #8
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Default Re: re Radiomuseum downloads

Yes it would have been good to get them out in time for Christmas, but that's very unlikely. They will be launched when they are finished and ready, I'm not targetting a specific date.
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Old 20th Aug 2018, 3:51 pm   #9
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Default Re: Vintage Radio Service Data DVD

Paul,

Making the collections available as you have done is a great service to the vintage radio community. Just to be clear I have no issue with you charging for your compilations on disc and do not doubt the considerable work it involves. Copying your collections and distributing them is also absolutely not on as far as I'm concerned. In fact I have not done so yet because my income these days is severely limited but I would happily and probably will buy your disc/s at some point.

The only grey area I can't get my head around is putting restrictions on the usage of individual data sheets. If you could have contacted the original copyright holders and bought the rights then that would be a very different situation. Surely copying a Trader sheet for a friend acknowledging the source must be reasonable behaviour?

As I stated earlier I have a folder full of original Trader sheets but although they have been in my possession for 50+ years I do not claim any sort of copyright on them, nor am I entitled to in any way.

It just seems the whole thing on the net is a bit of a legal shambles and I don't begin to understand it.
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Old 20th Aug 2018, 4:33 pm   #10
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Default Re: Vintage Radio Service Data DVD

Ultimately I would prefer people to buy the data from me rather than being given it by friends, for obvious reasons.

People will share data between friends though, and it's not a big deal. I'd never know anyway. I'm more bothered about it being shared online where lots of people can access it.

I have to draw a line somewhere and I am doing the same as if you bought a download MP3 music file from somewhere. The licence from Amazon, iTunes or whatever would say it is for your own use only.
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Old 20th Aug 2018, 4:37 pm   #11
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Default Re: Vintage Radio Service Data DVD

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Originally Posted by nebogipfel View Post
Paul,

The only grey area I can't get my head around is putting restrictions on the usage of individual data sheets. If you could have contacted the original copyright holders and bought the rights then that would be a very different situation. Surely copying a Trader sheet for a friend acknowledging the source must be reasonable behaviour?

As I stated earlier I have a folder full of original Trader sheets but although they have been in my possession for 50+ years I do not claim any sort of copyright on them, nor am I entitled to in any way.

It just seems the whole thing on the net is a bit of a legal shambles and I don't begin to understand it.
If you take a copy of your original trader sheet and send it to a friend I don't see a problem after all I have been copying sheets from my collection for decades to give to friends (at least 3 probably 4 or more ).

I remember copying sheets in the old 3M copiers at work where you got that funny shiny copy that would fade over 5 years or so

Paul is only claiming rights to the Sheets he has copied cleaned up and made available if I understand him correctly.

For the same reason although I have Pauls DVD I scanned my copies of Cossor Service sheets from originals and a lot of work it was too, it would in no way be right or fair to use Pauls scans.

I need to re-scan many or re edit many to improve the quality or in some cases find a better original.

Cheers

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Old 20th Aug 2018, 4:45 pm   #12
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Default Re: Vintage Radio Service Data DVD

If you take a photograph of something, you own the copyright of that photo, but not of the item that the photograph is of. If you do any enhancement or retouching then you own the copyright in that too.

One could argue that the same applies with a scan as it, like a photograph, is a digital image of a physical item. On that basis I could claim copyright of the scan (and any retouching work) but not of the document that it is a scan of. That is basically the approach I take.

I am not a copyright lawyer though, and have never consulted one.

Instead I just trust that the majority of my customers will appreciate and respect the amount of work that has gone into that 1.99 PDF file or that 24.99 disk full of them by not sharing them far and wide for free.
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Last edited by Paul Stenning; 20th Aug 2018 at 4:50 pm. Reason: Typos and clarity
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Old 20th Aug 2018, 4:51 pm   #13
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Default Re: Vintage Radio Service Data DVD

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Originally Posted by Paul Stenning View Post
Instead I just trust that the majority of my customers will appreciate and respect the amount of work that has gone into that 1.99 PDF file or that 24.99 disk full of them by not sharing them far and wide for free.
And I endorse that and when people are looking for data I send them to top right even if its available on my website, after all I want the forum to continue and to prosper. I am not here to undermine your hard work.

Cheers

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Old 20th Aug 2018, 5:36 pm   #14
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Default Re: Vintage Radio Service Data DVD

Same here Paul, I think I have mentioned to you that you are welcome to any service manuals on my KB Museum web site for inclusion in your DVD.
The pale green watermark can be easily removed (I found out later).
But I would appreciate a short subtle acknowledgement to the KB Museum on any if you do use them.

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Old 20th Aug 2018, 6:48 pm   #15
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Default Re: Vintage Radio Service Data DVD

If you want some guilt free trader sheets (guilt transferred elsewhere, if indeed it exists by now) you could join the BVWS. Amongst other benefits are scans of the first 1900 sheets. As with the red books, they're no substitute for manuals, being basically notes for experienced Engineers, but better than nothing.
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Old 20th Aug 2018, 6:53 pm   #16
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Default Re: re Radiomuseum downloads

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People who steal work don't see or consider things like that.
Not until someone steals from them!

The wronged dishonest man seems to be a lot noisier than the wronged honest man.

David
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Old 20th Aug 2018, 7:00 pm   #17
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Default Re: Vintage Radio Service Data DVD

As they say those in the wrong shout the loudest!
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Old 20th Aug 2018, 8:08 pm   #18
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Default Re: Vintage Radio Service Data DVD

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Originally Posted by AC/HL View Post
If you want some guilt free trader sheets (guilt transferred elsewhere, if indeed it exists by now) you could join the BVWS. Amongst other benefits are scans of the first 1900 sheets. As with the red books, they're no substitute for manuals, being basically notes for experienced Engineers, but better than nothing.
There are also a load of Broadcaster sheets for pre-war sets on the new member's DVD-ROM. A bit less detail than Trader sheets but still useful, and adequate for engineers at the time. They cover the period before Trader got started.
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Old 21st Aug 2018, 10:17 am   #19
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Default Re: Vintage Radio Service Data DVD

There is a lot of misconception and misinformation about copyright of images and other data on the internet, and my comments here may be a bit more as I am not an expert on the subject. But I did have some involvement with copyright rules when I was involved in adding photos of locations to a Geo-mapping website. I was approached via the website by a couple of companies who wanted the right to use my images for promotional purposes and hence did not wish to give any credit to me.

It is common accepted practice that photos and images posted on the internet by the creator and freely obtained from the internet, unless specifically marked otherwise can be reused so long as the original source of the image is credited.
(Slightly OT here but this is the sort of use that the Radio Museum applies as it insists that any non original images are identified as to where they came from.)
If other use is required or the re-user does not want to give the copyright holder credit then they must ask permission, in this case normally a fee is paid.

Normally this would apply to any image of original work or photo of a landscape or object.
It becomes very clouded when the image is of a paper or item which may have already been the subject of copyright owned by somebody else.
I have been informed that you cannot assert your own copyright on an image of someone else's copyrighted work, even if you have made alterations to it to clarify the image, and this does make sense, but it would need to be proved by a copyright expert.
But there are moral issues in copying someone's work, even more so when there are financial implications.

Paul's DVD has original data on it written specifically to index the image files.
This is obviously easily to identify as Paul's own copyright.

I hasten to add that I whole heartedly disprove of reusing anybody's work as your own and without crediting the originator, and against their wishes. In my view this would include all of Paul's hard work on scanning and compiling the useful DVD.
I can confirm I have never reused a whole schematic from Paul's DVD, I have only ever used small parts, for instance to help illustrate a discussion on a forum. I believe Paul accepts this as fair and reasonable.

This may be of interest here; https://creativecommons.org/share-yo...ypes-examples/

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