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20th Jan 2019, 10:58 pm | #1 |
Nonode
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Folkestone, Kent, UK.
Posts: 2,172
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Doable or dumb?
Hi all
I have a 48V 2kW solar setup and recently one of the 12V lead acid batteries died. So I replaced it, but with a different type (Varta 60Ah) from the remaining 3 'Powerline' 65Ah. I should say I've found the Powerline batteries to be crap Now I know the rule is the batteries should be the same voltage for balanced charging, and to aid this I fitted each battery with a circuit (green) that turns on a dummy load when the charge reaches 13.8V and this worked well, that is until I fitted the superior Varta, which doesn't reach 13.8V and thus is undercharging. So, is it feasible to charge the Varta (magenta) from an isolated charger (orange) whilst 'in circuit', that is while the battery string in charged from the 48V source? |
20th Jan 2019, 11:42 pm | #2 |
Nonode
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Folkestone, Kent, UK.
Posts: 2,172
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Re: Doable or dumb?
Sorry I should have stated the charging voltage is 55.2V (13.8 x 4)
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21st Jan 2019, 12:21 am | #3 |
Dekatron
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Leominster, Herefordshire, UK.
Posts: 16,536
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Re: Doable or dumb?
I don't understand how a shunt regulator to limit battery voltage to 13.8V can cause the battery it's across to be undercharging. Surely if the Varta isn't reaching 13.8V at full capacity it would be overcharging. Could it simply be that the Varta battery has more actual capacity than tired Powerline ones so it's just taking longer to charge?
It also seems very odd that it won't reach that voltage- for a one shot charge you would normally run constant current at about 14.4V limit until the charge current falls to around 10% of its initial value after the battery hits 14.4V then drop back to 13.8V to float the battery. No problem with exceeding 13.8V on the way up. What does the Varta battery datasheet have to say about recommended charge routines?
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21st Jan 2019, 12:38 am | #4 | |
Nonode
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Folkestone, Kent, UK.
Posts: 2,172
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Re: Doable or dumb?
Quote:
I haven't read the specs on the Varta but the Powerlines recommend charging at 13.8V and a single 14.4V charge once a month |
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21st Jan 2019, 1:25 am | #5 |
Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Fife, Scotland, UK.
Posts: 22,902
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Re: Doable or dumb?
You could buy three more Vartas. It sounds lik you're going to need to do so quite soon.
David
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21st Jan 2019, 2:45 am | #6 | |
Octode
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Staffordshire Moorlands, UK.
Posts: 1,479
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Re: Doable or dumb?
Quote:
Steve.
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21st Jan 2019, 9:48 am | #7 |
Guest
Posts: n/a
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Re: Doable or dumb?
I see no problem "jumping" the Varta, it will seem to the rest of the system as going up in volts a bit.
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21st Jan 2019, 11:34 am | #8 |
Dekatron
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Leominster, Herefordshire, UK.
Posts: 16,536
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Re: Doable or dumb?
Yes, you could also charge the Varta offline then add it to the string. The "hole" in the string will be filled in by the bypass unit anyway to keep the rest happy whilst charging, though you won't be able to take much power! Does your bypass have a reverse current protection diode?
13.8V charge is really just good for floating a fully charged battery indefinitely, to get a full charge at that voltage from empty will take a loooooooong time for the last bit. That's likely why Powerline suggest a regular "topping" charge since you're not usually just floating a standby battery in a solar PV application, you're running in a part cyclic mode. Lead acids are not happy for any significant time in anything other than a fully charged state.
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....__________ ....|____||__|__\_____ .=.| _---\__|__|_---_|. .........O..Chris....O |
21st Jan 2019, 2:23 pm | #9 |
Nonode
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Folkestone, Kent, UK.
Posts: 2,172
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Re: Doable or dumb?
Thanks guys
Merlin, that's the answer I needed Yes of course the definite cure would be to install 3 new Varta's, but I'm trying to cheapskate my way out of this, at least temporarily putting off the inevitable |
21st Jan 2019, 2:43 pm | #10 |
Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Fife, Scotland, UK.
Posts: 22,902
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Re: Doable or dumb?
Swapping to all Vartas now will at least mean you have a reasonably matched set into the future.
If the Powerline batteries are on the way out, you'll need to keep rebalancing things repeatedly. DAvid
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Can't afford the volcanic island yet, but the plans for my monorail and the goons' uniforms are done |
21st Jan 2019, 5:26 pm | #11 |
Dekatron
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Oxfordshire, UK.
Posts: 4,935
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Re: Doable or dumb?
Just to throw something in from "left field", my understanding is that the main failure mode for batteries in these systems is sulphation, and it is the solar power community that led the way to the use of de-sulphator units.
I've owned one of these for several years now, and I'm quite convinced that they do have a good effect on old sulphated batteries. Of course, there are other factors that cause batteries to decline, especially in car use, and de-sulphators are of limited benefit in those cases. The de-sulphator which I have came from this company http://www.courtiestown.co.uk/. The fact that they have been in business so long, says something about de-sulphators for those who are doubtful (no connection other than satisfied customer) I understand that the International Union of Pure and Applied Chemists (IUPAC) has now agreed that everyone should use the term sulfation, but I don't want to do that... and also, I still regard Pluto as a planet. B
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21st Jan 2019, 7:10 pm | #12 |
Nonode
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Coulsdon, London, UK.
Posts: 2,169
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Re: Doable or dumb?
Batteries from different manufacturers may have different 'chemistries' which will determine the terminal voltage and charging voltages.
I would imagine that even batteries from the same batch of a production run from one manufacturer would have slightly different terminal voltages and Amp hour capacities. Hopefully you already have an intelligent charger that will limit the current and both the fast charge and float charge voltages. A balancing charge will be required occasionally. If I were in your situation, I would be tempted to buy four cheap LED voltmeters and put one across each battery. You could then monitor the voltage of each battery during charging and discharging. I would not replace the Powerline batteries until I saw signs of age or failure. Last edited by Silicon; 21st Jan 2019 at 7:14 pm. Reason: More comment. |
21st Jan 2019, 11:27 pm | #13 | |
Dekatron
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Oxfordshire, UK.
Posts: 4,935
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Re: Doable or dumb?
Quote:
B
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Saturn V had 6 million pounds of fuel. It would take thirty thousand strong men to lift it an inch. |
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22nd Jan 2019, 3:04 am | #14 |
Nonode
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Tintinara, South Australia, Australia
Posts: 2,342
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Re: Doable or dumb?
Now you know that's just going to cost you more in the long run .....
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22nd Jan 2019, 3:19 am | #15 |
Banned
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Mareeba, North Queensland, Australia
Posts: 2,704
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Re: Doable or dumb?
Cheapskating wont work !!!
After 35 years of doing solar power, I can guarantee that you will end up with a dead battery bank. The three Powerline batteries will shortly fail. You will buy three new Varta's to replace them, ONLY to find the Varta fitted now no longer matches the three new ones. Second set of batteries will also be a failure!!. TRy putting 3 off 6 inch wide tyres on your car, and a single 5 inch tyre. Its only a "small" discrepancy. 60 Ah and 65 Ah is also only a small discrepancy. Internal resistance of the new battery will be MUCH different to the old ones. Joe |