Single-Standard Receivers in 1936? - UK Vintage Radio Repair and Restoration Discussion Forum

Brigham · 22nd Oct 2013, 10:42 pm

On a recent visit to the Bradford museum, I learned that commercial receivers for the new High-Definition service were either Baird system or Marconi-EMI system, and that only certain 'up-market' types were able to receive both.
This concept, a sort-of 'format-war', was entirely new to me. I had previously thought that all available domestic sets were for both standards, in order to allow the widest possible comparison.
Does anyone have a Baird-only or Marconi-EMI-only set from 1936 to verify the idea?

Duke_Nukem · 22nd Oct 2013, 11:20 pm

Sadly I don't have such an early set. But I seem to recall that it is estimated that only 100 tv's were in action on the first day and most were in public areas such as clubs. Can't believe a club - or rich household - would make such an investment if a set only worked on half of the available days - the two standards were not broadcast simultaneously but on different days.

TTFN,
Jon

mark pirate · 23rd Oct 2013, 12:00 am

There were sets that were 'dual standard' from EMI, marketed under the HMV and Marconi badges.

Mark

peter_scott · 23rd Oct 2013, 9:07 am

I suspect that there has been some confusion here with people seeing prototype receivers and assuming that they were production models.

In Wireless World 4th Sept 1936 there is an article titled "Dual Television Receivers, The Two Television Transmissions, Some Practical Considerations."

It was written by E.G.O. Anderson, Television Section, Ferranti Ltd.

Just to quote a few lines from it:

"Any television receiver should be capable of receiving both transmissions without complicated and critical adjustments having to be made."

"This is extremely easy to do if the receiver employs a conventional gas-filled triode time base circuit for line and frame scanning, i.e., it is only necessary to increase the capacity of condenser C0 (Fig. 1) in each case."

It's certainly the case that Baird and EMI sets produced for the initial service had dual timebases. I've also been recently looking at GEC's offering and it and clearly Ferranti offered dual capability. I'm also fairly sure that Cossor sets were dual and find it difficult to believe that any of the other manufacturers producing sets ready for Radiolympia in 1936 were other than dual. The only slight doubt in my mind would be the readiness of Scophony for 405 line operation but its products were very far from economy jobs.

Peter

FERNSEH · 23rd Oct 2013, 3:50 pm

Certainly all the very early HMV and Marconi sets were dual standard in the sense that the line timebase could be switched from 10,125c/s to 6,000c/s.
The frame timebase was switchable from 50c/s to 25c/s.
The RF amplifiers had no switching, double sideband vision and sound.
The recomendation by EMI service was that the timebase switch should be removed and the set hard wired for the Marconi-EMI system only.
My Cossor 137T is said to be an early model but there is no sign of a timebase switch even been fitted.

DFWB.

peter_scott · 23rd Oct 2013, 9:26 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by FERNSEH

My Cossor 137T is said to be an early model but there is no sign of a timebase switch even been fitted.

DFWB.

I guess your Cossor post dates the decision.
See: http://www.earlytelevision.org/pdf/cossor_137T_237T.pdf

Peter

ENGLISH VICTOR · 1st Dec 2013, 12:22 pm

In "Television the formative years" Cossor make the point that their receivers locked perfectly to both tv systems despite the poor shape of the Baird system syn pulses, this depite a poor showing from some other makers sets. I am not quoting verbatum but the message is accurate enough to convey the idea that they must have been producing dual standard receivers.
Victor.

22nd Oct 2013, 10:42 pm	#1
Brigham Octode Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Co. Durham, UK. Posts: 1,117	Single-Standard Receivers in 1936? On a recent visit to the Bradford museum, I learned that commercial receivers for the new High-Definition service were either Baird system or Marconi-EMI system, and that only certain 'up-market' types were able to receive both. This concept, a sort-of 'format-war', was entirely new to me. I had previously thought that all available domestic sets were for both standards, in order to allow the widest possible comparison. Does anyone have a Baird-only or Marconi-EMI-only set from 1936 to verify the idea?

22nd Oct 2013, 11:20 pm	#2
Duke_Nukem Octode Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Birmingham, West Midlands, UK. Posts: 1,268	Re: Single-Standard Receivers in 1936? Sadly I don't have such an early set. But I seem to recall that it is estimated that only 100 tv's were in action on the first day and most were in public areas such as clubs. Can't believe a club - or rich household - would make such an investment if a set only worked on half of the available days - the two standards were not broadcast simultaneously but on different days. TTFN, Jon

23rd Oct 2013, 12:00 am	#3
mark pirate Dekatron Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Worthing, West Sussex, UK Posts: 5,185	Re: Single-Standard Receivers in 1936? There were sets that were 'dual standard' from EMI, marketed under the HMV and Marconi badges. Mark

23rd Oct 2013, 9:07 am	#4
peter_scott Dekatron Join Date: May 2003 Location: Edinburgh, UK. Posts: 3,274	Re: Single-Standard Receivers in 1936? I suspect that there has been some confusion here with people seeing prototype receivers and assuming that they were production models. In Wireless World 4th Sept 1936 there is an article titled "Dual Television Receivers, The Two Television Transmissions, Some Practical Considerations." It was written by E.G.O. Anderson, Television Section, Ferranti Ltd. Just to quote a few lines from it: "Any television receiver should be capable of receiving both transmissions without complicated and critical adjustments having to be made." "This is extremely easy to do if the receiver employs a conventional gas-filled triode time base circuit for line and frame scanning, i.e., it is only necessary to increase the capacity of condenser C0 (Fig. 1) in each case." It's certainly the case that Baird and EMI sets produced for the initial service had dual timebases. I've also been recently looking at GEC's offering and it and clearly Ferranti offered dual capability. I'm also fairly sure that Cossor sets were dual and find it difficult to believe that any of the other manufacturers producing sets ready for Radiolympia in 1936 were other than dual. The only slight doubt in my mind would be the readiness of Scophony for 405 line operation but its products were very far from economy jobs. Peter __________________ http://www.nostalgiatech.co.uk https://www.youtube.com/c/PeterScott/videos

23rd Oct 2013, 3:50 pm	#5
FERNSEH Dekatron Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Gateshead, Tyne and Wear, UK. Posts: 7,444	Re: Single-Standard Receivers in 1936? Certainly all the very early HMV and Marconi sets were dual standard in the sense that the line timebase could be switched from 10,125c/s to 6,000c/s. The frame timebase was switchable from 50c/s to 25c/s. The RF amplifiers had no switching, double sideband vision and sound. The recomendation by EMI service was that the timebase switch should be removed and the set hard wired for the Marconi-EMI system only. My Cossor 137T is said to be an early model but there is no sign of a timebase switch even been fitted. DFWB.

1st Dec 2013, 12:22 pm	#7
ENGLISH VICTOR Hexode Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 356	Re: Single-Standard Receivers in 1936? In "Television the formative years" Cossor make the point that their receivers locked perfectly to both tv systems despite the poor shape of the Baird system syn pulses, this depite a poor showing from some other makers sets. I am not quoting verbatum but the message is accurate enough to convey the idea that they must have been producing dual standard receivers. Victor.