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Old 27th Jan 2022, 11:03 am   #41
Pellseinydd
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Default Re: Old phones and the new BT internet-only phonelines

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Originally Posted by woodchips View Post
<snip>

But it is the loss of the analogue signal that I wondered about. Even if you have ISDN you still get an analogue signal, and IP is digital, which is not the same. Analogue is far more resilient than digital, if the signal coding goes then you can't hear anything. With analogue, if you know the routing numbers from exchange to exchange you can dial as far as you want, have to shout, but it works.

<snip>
The 'analogue' signal comes out of an 'adapter' that plugs into the ISDN socket unless you are using an ISDN telephone. The signal from the exchange comes as a digital one and is converted to analogue on the subs premises.

Same applies with VoIP - The telephone sockets on routers accept a normal analogue 'Touch Tone' telephone as do the sockets on Analogue Terminal Adapters - the current Grandstream HT8XX range of ATAs even work with old rotary pulse dialling telephones. Again there are VoIP telephones but they don't plug into the 'telephone' socket on the router - they plug into the Cat 5 sockets that your computers plug into. But the phone user still just dials away as normal.

BT/Openreach are just delivering the 'signal' locally from the exchange in a different way. Bear in mind that all the links between exchanges have been 'digital' for many years. Doesn't seem that long ago since I was working as senior commissioning engineer on getting the Post Office's first large public electronic exchange , a TXE4, going at Birmingham 'Rectory' in the mid 1970's.

I doubt that your local exchange has 11Kv sockets in it! It will still have power plant working off 250 volts. Most have a 'fall back' generator in them.
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Old 27th Jan 2022, 11:16 am   #42
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Default Re: Old phones and the new BT internet-only phonelines

I thought I'd chime in with my experience.

We upgraded to a new Vodafone full fibre package last year and as a result were switched over to the new VoIP internet-only phone system. But it didn't work. I could call out, but not receive calls - I could hear a faint buzzing from the router that sounded like it was attempting to ring the phone, but it didn't ring.

I wasn't particularly bothered, since we never use the landline - the only calls we get now are sales calls! But after a few months curiosity got the better of me and I discovered that the line was working fine - but the phone connected needed to be a modern (early 2010s-era) phone.

My suspicion is that the router doesn't provide sufficient current for the older phones to detect that there is an incoming call. And I should clarify, that by "old phones" I mean ones from the late 90s / early 2000s - not the old bell-ring GPO phones (although I did try one to see if it could receive incoming calls, and predictably it couldn't).
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Old 27th Jan 2022, 1:21 pm   #43
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(although I did try one to see if it could receive incoming calls, and predictably it couldn't).
Could it receive calls but not ring?
 
Old 27th Jan 2022, 1:47 pm   #44
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Default Re: Old phones and the new BT internet-only phonelines

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It looks like some of the equipment has a regular BT phone jack, so my guess is that you may use the 3 wires you use from the master socket to the rest of the house, but you should probably disconnect the the entire master socket. Tha components in the master socket may be bad for the system, and the old line in should definitely not be connected.

If you have an adapter with the typical American jack (RJ12) the 2 center wires could be fed into the 2 red and whit on your system. The wires from outside house should be disconnected, and the master socket will do its job to dived ringing. It does not matter where after the master socket you connect that wire.
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Yes, you are right. Of course you can take the phone” signal” from the router and feed it back into your extension wiring. Provided the incoming line( with broadband) is kept separate then it should( and indeed does. I’ve done it for customers a few times) work fine with existing legacy phones. Many newer phones don’t need the bell wire, so just a pair of wires will suffice in most cases.

In BT’s case the main reason for this change is the manufacturers of the “ modern” existing digital exchanges( some of which were installed in the early 1990s) are no longer supporting them after 2025, so the decision was taken to go VOIP.
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Old 27th Jan 2022, 2:40 pm   #45
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Default Re: Old phones and the new BT internet-only phonelines

The lady I mentioned doesn't have broadband, just a POTS, into which the emergency unit plugs. So no digital signals come into the house.

But my point is that for the last many years a 50V supply has been coming in to power the emergency interface, this is not possible with IP signals, they will be digital. Apparently there are more than 1 million of these phones, plus others in lifts and similar emergency situations. No power, no signal, no working.
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Old 27th Jan 2022, 3:41 pm   #46
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Doesn't look like the unintended consequences have been addressed properly. The VOIP to POTS could be at the exchange end, benefitting from the battery in the exchange, for those alarm systems IF they put 50V on the line.
 
Old 27th Jan 2022, 5:09 pm   #47
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Default Re: Old phones and the new BT internet-only phonelines

50 v would be handy, then engineers would know a pair( of wires) was in use. At the moment there is no way to identify the internet only lines apart from disconnecting and checking for the presence of a DSLAM. I believe the BT boffins are working on a solution to the identification problem. It’s a bad idea to do away with the 50 volts as it provides “whetting”, the voltage to overcome bad connections and carry the signal further.
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Old 27th Jan 2022, 5:27 pm   #48
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Default Re: Old phones and the new BT internet-only phonelines

Out of curiosity I've been mentioning this transition to various friends/relatives [age range from about 12 and 95] and asking them what they think of it. The biggest response has been utter indifference; only one such person [in his 50s] thought any loss of landline would be problematic [he has lots of international contafcts who have been calling him on his landline-number for 25 years] - when I explained that with "WiFi calling" he could keep the same number but have the calls routed to his mobile when he is in range of WiFi and automatic redirect to his mobile when there's no wifi signal] he was interested - so I set it up for him and he is delighted.

Relevant: I heard Giles Brandreth being interviewed regarding today's announcement of the sad death of Barry Cryer; Giles quipped "At last I can get rid of the landline - Barry was the last person who ever called me on it to tell me his latest joke!"

I suspect that for the vast majority of people the switch to FTTP and POTS-over-fibre will be about as relevant as the demise of telegrams or telex was 40 years ago.
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Old 27th Jan 2022, 7:38 pm   #49
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and automatic redirect to his mobile
I don't have one, I did dabble a year or so ago, hated the thing (that was a dumb job too). It will become, by default, to have a mobile by law. No no no...
 
Old 27th Jan 2022, 8:11 pm   #50
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Default Re: Old phones and the new BT internet-only phonelines

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50 v would be handy, then engineers would know a pair( of wires) was in use. At the moment there is no way to identify the internet only lines apart from disconnecting and checking for the presence of a DSLAM. I believe the BT boffins are working on a solution to the identification problem. It’s a bad idea to do away with the 50 volts as it provides “whetting”, the voltage to overcome bad connections and carry the signal further.
But this way, we (all) have to provide, house and pay for the power supply equipment; your way, BT do!
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Old 27th Jan 2022, 8:22 pm   #51
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Default Re: Old phones and the new BT internet-only phonelines

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No no no...
Agreed! I've not owned a mobile device of any sort, then almost the only use I've had for the landline telephone in the past year or two has been two-factor authentication, which would otherwise be problematic.

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Old 27th Jan 2022, 10:12 pm   #52
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Default Re: Old phones and the new BT internet-only phonelines

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But this way, we (all) have to provide, house and pay for the power supply equipment; your way, BT do!
At a limit of about 30mA a line! There’s the DSLAM in the street of course, and all those people still on “ standard” ADSL from the exchange.

Of course the customer has to power the router, which is the problem really. If power fails then broadband & phone go. The whole thing( as seems to be increasingly common these days, or maybe I’m just getting old) doesn’t seem to have been thought out properly.
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Old 28th Jan 2022, 9:46 am   #53
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Default Re: Old phones and the new BT internet-only phonelines

Any idea how the "star" services get done in this new world?

I would be glad to see the back of their extortionate prices for things that make them money - like call redirect.
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Old 31st Jan 2022, 8:39 pm   #54
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Default Re: Old phones and the new BT internet-only phonelines

BT want to put the onus on the suppliers to deal with the change in the network...

https://www.bt.com/help/landline/dig...endant-showing
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Old 1st Feb 2022, 12:11 pm   #55
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Default Re: Old phones and the new BT internet-only phonelines

The “ internet only” lines( known as SOGEA) don’t presently work with BT Redcare. They do work with the lifeline units though, ( plugged into the router) but again problems if power goes out. I’m sure someone will come up with a UPS for routers that switches over to a sealed lead acid battery. Now there’s an idea……….
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Old 1st Feb 2022, 3:28 pm   #56
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Default Re: Old phones and the new BT internet-only phonelines

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I’m sure someone will come up with a UPS for routers that switches over to a sealed lead acid battery. Now there’s an idea……….

There's an idea.....
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Old 1st Feb 2022, 4:51 pm   #57
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My UPS (yes, someone has thought of it) will hold up the server and router for an hour or so. Not good for a prolonged power cut as the north of GB is having now.
 
Old 1st Feb 2022, 10:29 pm   #58
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Default Re: Old phones and the new BT INternet-only phonelines

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Most people will need a new router with a phone socket in order to support this. Presumably this will be funded by BT.

Any internal phone wiring will just connect to the router phone socket rather than the NTE socket.

The router phone interface is nothing to do with the RJ45 Ethernet sockets found on almost all routers.

AsPaul says , from my forays on FB on BT GROUPS I've discovered that it may be possible for those of us with several sockets in house to simply move the point of connection from the existing master socket to close to the router. It would appear to be similar to something I've done in past with BB ,where I extend the BT LINE ( in 2Wire mode) to beside my PC, add a slave socket , plug filter into the socket and filter BB to PC, and using a plug convertor to a master socket provide a feed to my telephones and hence to rest of house.
In the case of a feed from the router, what will be needed ( from my understanding), is to get a feed from the router tele socket to a master socket to feed the house. What is uncertain is whether the system over the router socket will allow LD signalling. In which case it might be necessary to fit a small switch which converts from LD to tone signalling. Perhaps the simplest is a Panasonic KXT 308 OR 206 . For the novice, a 206 is simpler in that it does not need a system phone.
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Old 2nd Feb 2022, 9:38 am   #59
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Default Re: Old phones and the new BT internet-only phonelines

All of my extension sockets go through a BT REN booster because I have several old dial phones in the house, so when BT changed our FTTP to their VOIP service last year all I did was plug the whole system into the telephone socket on the back of the router via a Dialgizmo and all the phone are still able to dial out using LD
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Old 2nd Feb 2022, 8:12 pm   #60
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Default Re: Old phones and the new BT internet-only phonelines

Incidentally, this subject was discussed on a BBC programme this morning. Somewhere in Wales there was a village that half of it was converted to the new system quite early. People were surprised when the phones didn't work in a power cut, though as I've said before most people only have cordless phones which die anyway in a power cut.

The photo I added a few posts ago shows the UPS and FTTC VDSL modem. The two cordless base stations are also supplied from this. The router and NAS have another upstairs, and there's a third UPS looking after a couple of other Synology servers.
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