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Old 7th Dec 2021, 11:19 pm   #21
Oldcodger
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Default Naked( ie phone lines without copper)

https://www.vintage-radio.net/forum/...=185816&page=3
I was going to post on this before it was closed .Reading on FB from engineers comments, it appears that a phone connection is available . From a socket on the router a phone line appears and I'd suggest that ( from BT/OR blokes posts on FB) that to convert from an old ( what we GPO/PO/BT folks called)a plan 1/1A with up to REN 4 in the house is possible. Whether old LD( e.g. 700/300/200) type phones will ever dial out without the benefit of a switch or converter is debatable, but incoming calls should still be possible. But it seems that OR/BT are relying on a 24/7/365 constant mains supply. This policy might be tempered by events in Cumbria / Northumberland and Aberdeenshire.
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Old 15th Dec 2021, 1:18 pm   #22
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Default Re: Old phones and the new BT INternet-only phonelines

It seems what's being planned by the phone companies is to provide a free 'adaptor'. I've been looking them up on the BT website, and they're big things, kind of like a powerbreaker, that you plug in and connect to your wifi. You then plug the old style phones into them.

It's still extremely impractical. My attic room, which I use a lot, does not have adequate wifi in it, nor does it have a plug by the chair and table, or anywhere suitable for a phone for that mater.
All the plugs are in use already. The phone-adaptor is too big an clunky to be plugged into one of the cube plug-adaptors that give you more sockets.

Plus all of this is going to put a strain on the internet, which isn't exactly a top of the line one anywayy.
This is going to be awful.
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Old 15th Dec 2021, 3:19 pm   #23
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Default Re: Old phones and the new BT INternet-only phonelines

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Originally Posted by Eidolon View Post
It's still extremely impractical. My attic room, which I use a lot, does not have adequate wifi in it, nor does it have a plug by the chair and table, or anywhere suitable for a phone for that mater.
All the plugs are in use already. The phone-adaptor is too big an clunky to be plugged into one of the cube plug-adaptors that give you more sockets.
But you could put the adaptor somewhere else and use the existing wire into your attic room to get it there?
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Old 15th Dec 2021, 3:27 pm   #24
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Default Re: Old phones and the new BT INternet-only phonelines

It sounds not so much like the adaptor is too big, rather that you don't have power sockets where you need them, and enough of them.

I put in ethernet cables for my main data routes. I put in a couple of power sockets where the VDSL modem/router and future phone adaptor was going to have to be for best data rate, and I buy a big enough data rate. There need be no problem or difficulty if you have things set up well in the first place, and have some spare sockets in places where you need them, and enough data capacity to handle future needs.

I do NOT want to use data-over-mains adaptors. I want to still be able to use my radios! and the mains data adaptors are terrible generators of interference. Ethernet cables save wifi bandwidth for things which need to move without wasting it on static links. Besides, the cables are more secure.

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Old 15th Dec 2021, 4:33 pm   #25
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Default Re: Old phones and the new BT INternet-only phonelines

Can you put the adaptor at the router position and feed all the 'phones from there as it was before?
 
Old 16th Dec 2021, 10:18 am   #26
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Default Re: Old phones and the new BT INternet-only phonelines

BT will not provide fibre to my home in a rural area so I changed to an FTTP service provided by B4RN about a year ago.
I was provided with a router (Zyxel) which has a POT port on it, simply connected this to my three phones using the existing wiring, no ADSL filter required. It works very well the downside is that I had to fit a small UPS, no bad thing anyway, to maintain telephone service in case of a power cut. If you switch off the computer it will easily run the router for a number of hours.
If you only want to run the router it is easy to make a small UPS yourself since you will probably only need 12v anyway.

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Old 16th Dec 2021, 10:51 am   #27
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Default Re: Old phones and the new BT INternet-only phonelines

Our service in a very rural part of Shropshire, is also not without problems.
BT cannot provide broadband, as we are more than 8km from the exchange. They said they could, took my money, & then when it didn't work (I'd already told them so!) they charged us for early cancellation of the contract.

So, we now have telephone only, via BT, and broadband, via a series of 5GHz point-to- point links. The company that provides this also has a main mast in our garden. All fine so far. However, if there's a power cut, our mast has a 12v car battery as backup which will hold up for a day or so, but not all other links do. Over the recent storm periods, we were without internet for around 4 days. So if we had (which we don't) the optional VOIP we would be without any telephone contact, except mobile which is very patchy.

So we rely on BT for the POTS. However, I imagine that come 2025, BT will just withdraw our copper line, so we then have no backup whatsoever if we lose the internet as well.

As others have said, this all seems like a retrograde step, albeit a technical advancement.

At least I stil have 2metres for a desperate 'help' call!

I wonder whar Edison & Bell would have thought of the progress..

David.
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Old 18th Dec 2021, 6:54 pm   #28
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Default Re: Old phones and the new BT INternet-only phonelines

I rarely use my landline, but as the number has been in the family for almost seventy years (and I get very few spam calls) I decided to keep it. But, I have Virgin Media Broadband and resented paying 20+ pm for a landline. So, a few years ago I switched the number to a paid VOIP service which costs me 6pm and is much more reliable than other ‘free’ VOIP services I have tried. I use a Gigaset VOIP system with wireless handsets, I also have VOIP app on my iphone. I have to say it all works very well, the Gigaset and router need an occasional reboot but other than that I am pleased with it and its saved me a lot of money….
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Old 23rd Jan 2022, 10:41 pm   #29
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Default Re: Old phones and the new BT INternet-only phonelines

Quote:
Originally Posted by duncanlowe View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eidolon View Post
It's still extremely impractical. My attic room, which I use a lot, does not have adequate wifi in it, nor does it have a plug by the chair and table, or anywhere suitable for a phone for that mater.
All the plugs are in use already. The phone-adaptor is too big an clunky to be plugged into one of the cube plug-adaptors that give you more sockets.
But you could put the adaptor somewhere else and use the existing wire into your attic room to get it there?
From what I've seen on FB BT sites, the socket on the router providing a phone line is suitable for a standard phone plug. My simple suggestion is to extend house phone wiring to somewhere near router and plug the house system into the router.
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Old 24th Jan 2022, 12:01 pm   #30
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Default Re: Old phones and the new BT INternet-only phonelines

Before you start test if the phone works direct on the adapter/router. If yes disconnect the phone wires from outside in to the master socket.

It looks like some of the equipment has a regular BT phone jack, so my guess is that you may use the 3 wires you use from the master socket to the rest of the house, but you should probably disconnect the the entire master socket. Tha components in the master socket may be bad for the system, and the old line in should definitely not be connected.

If you have an adapter with the typical American jack (RJ12) the 2 center wires could be fed into the 2 red and whit on your system. The wires from outside house should be disconnected, and the master socket will do its job to dived ringing. It does not matter where after the master socket you connect that wire.
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Old 25th Jan 2022, 1:38 pm   #31
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Default Re: Old phones and the new BT INternet-only phonelines

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldcodger View Post
From what I've seen on FB BT sites, the socket on the router providing a phone line is suitable for a standard phone plug. My simple suggestion is to extend house phone wiring to somewhere near router and plug the house system into the router.
As the next post do this with caution!

I have been on VOIP for almost a year via a full FTTP connection, the call quality is far better than the old 80 year old rural overhead badly, if ever, maintained lines

I was my intention to back feed the router phone socket into the house wiring

By chance I checked one of the currently "disconnected" handsets and it has a dialling tone

My incoming, and now unused, copper telephone line is still live. I tried calling my mobile to get the number but it wil not let me make a call. My contact at BT says its been allocated an unused port for some reason not specified and thinks that is "normal"

I am going to cut the wires where they enter the house

TBH I'm not making much effort as we so rarely get calls on the landline phone at all

So connect your house wiring with caution!

Fred

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Old 25th Jan 2022, 2:12 pm   #32
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Default Re: Old phones and the new BT INternet-only phonelines

If connecting your internal house wiring to the telephone port on the router, it should first be disconnected from any existing network wiring regardless of whether it is "live".
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Old 25th Jan 2022, 5:10 pm   #33
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Default Re: Old phones and the new BT internet-only phonelines

I suspect some clever person will invent some kind of interface to allow the old phones to be used. Something like the change from pulse dialling to tone dialling. I agree this change will result in difficulties as change often does but it will have a lot of advantages. I suspect a lot of us will stop having landline phones and just use mobiles. The only thing my landline has been used for in years is the internet I haven’t made a call in years.
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Old 25th Jan 2022, 6:39 pm   #34
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Default Re: Old phones and the new BT internet-only phonelines

There already are pulse-to-tone converters available, such as the Dialgizmo and others. As far as I know, that is the only interfacing needed for connecting old 'phones to the telephone socket of a router.
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Old 26th Jan 2022, 2:35 pm   #35
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Default Re: Old phones and the new BT internet-only phonelines

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Originally Posted by Dave Moll View Post
There already are pulse-to-tone converters available, such as the Dialgizmo and others. As far as I know, that is the only interfacing needed for connecting old 'phones to the telephone socket of a router.
Or the other option to use an old pulse dialling telephone is to use a Grandstream TandyTone 5XX/7XX or their current HT8XX series Analogue Terminal Adapter. We have a network with literally thousands of old pulse dialling telephones stretching around the UK and the rest of the World as far as New Zealand. We've been using the technology that BT/OR are moving towards for the last fifteen years! There are about thirty odd servers in the UK with many old pulse dialling phones connected. The 'technology' lets us put old phones virtually anywhere - all the phones in attached photo were connected up and able to dial all around the World as well as between each other using an 8 port Grandstream ATA.

Even BT have a number of lines off my VoIP server which end up on the exchange lines on an old electro-mechanical exchange in Holborn exchange in London. Reason? The PABX was found in 2019 in Leicester Exchange powered up and ready to go but hadn't handled a call since 1985 (all the users had been given those new fangled 'Cellphones' ! ) It was moved to London and reinstalled. However BT wanted to put the original Leicester numbers on the exchange lines but someone had gone and altered Leicester to 0115 xxx-xxxx rather than the 0533 xxxxx from the 1980's. As we still use the old dialling codes and numbering, they came to our network. Plus they liked the fact we don't have 'line rental' or 'call charges' whatever they are? Even Dave M is connected!
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Old 26th Jan 2022, 5:56 pm   #36
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Default Re: Old phones and the new BT internet-only phonelines

This is going to create the same problem that we get with digital TV - i.e. the simple old way to see what is going wrong becomes too hard.
It is useful to be able to listen to the crackles on the line to know that water is getting in again. With the broadband it just slows down without comment.

I also worry that my colleague has been using a VOIP service for years and it endlessly serves up problems. The most mysterious is that it generates strange tone-bursts from time to time. No idea why. And the audio quality is less good too.

This will cause me a huge lot of trouble as I currently have two lines, one for broadband and one for voice (paid for differently).
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Old 26th Jan 2022, 8:38 pm   #37
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Default Re: Old phones and the new BT internet-only phonelines

Some elderly people will struggle to understand and use the new system.

I know some that can't remember how to use mobile phones and are now starting to leave cordless landline phones 'off hook'.
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Old 26th Jan 2022, 9:50 pm   #38
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Default Re: Old phones and the new BT internet-only phonelines

A couple of comments which I hope aren't controversial.

For 'normal' folk (as in not like us) they will not see any change whatsoever. Two years ago my parents (in their 70s / 80s) moved into a place that is FTTP and the 'phone line' is provided via a socket on the fibre modem. I plugged the base station for their existing cordless into said socket and even though my Dad is fairly tech savvy for someone of his age I'm pretty sure he has no real idea of any change.

I do kind of agree that older people can struggle with a cordless phone, as my MiL was leaving hers 'off hook' quite often. But that's absolutely nothing to do with the system of delivery, she is on a very ancient POTS connection. She would behave no differently and know no differently if the connection was via VDSL or FTTP. Not that she would ever let anyone in to change stuff over. That even includes a problem we know she has with water getting in somewhere, and the fact that she (supported by other family) swear blind that the issues in calls from my wifes mobile are down to her mobile. The fact that the issues changed not a jot on purchase of a brand new mobile makes no difference.
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Old 26th Jan 2022, 11:39 pm   #39
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Default Re: Old phones and the new BT internet-only phonelines

As you say, it is a different way of delivering the service and not a 'new system' - latter makes a good story for the Press!.

I might add that I had a problem some years ago. No dialling tone on my BT line. I have FTTC - cabinet 50 yards away so great for my CNet server that has approx. 200 lines running off it to all corners of the World. I could hear NU tone on the line and hear other folk picking up and I could speak to them. No incoming calls - went to Busy Tone although I wasn't on the phone. I reported the problem to BT in a distant land saying it was 'a cable fault' but was told 'no it isn't its in the exchange' ! That was on a Friday evening. By the following Wednesday they admitted it was a cable fault ! Turned out that water had got into a joint in a 400 pair lead cable with paper covered wires. Took them another ten days to sort the problem out as they don't hold cable locally and had to order it!

But interestingly, the broadband held up no problem so my 200 odd lines carried on working no problem.

So I can't see a problem with a new 'delivery system'.

And when it comes to age, doesn't necessarily apply. I've been around for a while. I've spoken to someone who knew Dane Sinclair who designed and built a small automatic phone system which he fitted to serve some subscribers in Coatbridge in the mid 1880's when he was the National Telephone Co's District Manager and many years later was the first Managing Director of the newly formed Automatic Telephone Manufacturing Co who supplied the GPO's first auto exchange. When I started 'playing telephones' there was still magneto 'wind the handle' exchanges in service. Happy days.. I'm also the last living army officer who can say they served with Lord Kitchener! Yes - The Earl Kitchener of Khartoum was my CO !

We didn't have 'Army numbers' in those days - we al knew each other!
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Old 27th Jan 2022, 10:07 am   #40
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Default Re: Old phones and the new BT internet-only phonelines

We are friends with an elderly lady, 93, who has one of these wrist strap emergency calling buttons. The local council stopped her home support, 2 days before Christmas, by the carers just not turning up one morning. Just before New Year she fell and fractured her spine. The emergency button worked a treat, and the people who ran it were also brilliant. But the ambulance took 12 hours to arrive, giving plenty of time to sit and think.

The existing POTS system is analogue and the power for the emergency system comes from the exchange. What happens in the future? So you get one hours' battery backup? The emergency service were phoning every hour or so to check up what was happening, would whatever battery last that long?

But it is the loss of the analogue signal that I wondered about. Even if you have ISDN you still get an analogue signal, and IP is digital, which is not the same. Analogue is far more resilient than digital, if the signal coding goes then you can't hear anything. With analogue, if you know the routing numbers from exchange to exchange you can dial as far as you want, have to shout, but it works.

None of the mobile masts near us have backup power, so losing the mobile loses all signals. All mobile masts can be shut down in an emergency, so how long will it take people to find the code used?

The problem with digital phones is the power they take. A Strowger exchange ran from a 13A plug, but one we pass in Lincolnshire has been upgraded from the domestic power feed to a remote 11kV transformer and several three phase poles to now a direct 11kV transformer right outside the exchange on poles. So just how much power does it take, with the 11kV daisy chained across miles of fields with lots of trees.

I don't for a minute think it won't work, it is just for how long?
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