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Old 17th Apr 2018, 12:29 pm   #21
boombox
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Default Re: Calling the old BT technicians...

All: thanks SO much for your assistance and input on this.

In the end by chance I think I've found the problem. I was moving an internal socket (that was in situ when we bought the house) and I noticed that master sockets have been used throughout. I think this has been taking the REN over value and as such causing an intermittent problem.
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Old 17th Apr 2018, 1:03 pm   #22
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Default Re: Calling the old BT technicians...

Quote:
Originally Posted by rambo1152 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Moll View Post
As far as I'm aware 1471 simply asks the exchange to relay the last number recorded as received on that line.
...I can enlarge on the "storage" aspect.

BT used to supply an enhanced 1471 service called "1471 Extra" that
listed the last five calls. It was quite useful but it was withdrawn 10 years ago without any explanation.

I formed my own theory that maybe OFCOM thought BT were not honoring the withheld flag sufficiently. The service gave you slightly more
information about "withheld" callers than was possible by other
means, including a caller display.

Say someone called you withholding their number. You speak to them so
you know who it was.
1471 extra will say "The caller who withheld their number called today
at [some time]"

Later in the day they call again, still withheld. Perhaps there was
some malicious content this time, but the point is you don't know
who's calling, but, 1471 now says:
"The caller who withheld their number called today two times. The last
time was at [some_later_time]" So now you *do* know it was from the
same number as the previous call.

I wonder if this was the real reason the service was withdrawn?
I am sure that recording calls-received numbers takes place, as far as possible (calls from abroad may not be possible, for instance), in the aid of crime detection and nuisance-call reduction.

Given that calling numbers are recorded, it was simple for BT to implement the 1471 service. I've found it very useful in the past.

If an ex-directory number calls you - or caller withholds their number, then a flag is passed to the 1471 workings, so the message is, "You were called on (date) at (time). The caller withheld their number." But the caller's withheld number is still stored, and can be made available to the right authorities.

If there really is no number stored - such as internationally-originated call, the message is, "You were called on (date) at (time). We do not have a number for this call." Which is subtly different.
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Old 17th Apr 2018, 11:06 pm   #23
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Default Re: Calling the old BT technicians...

kalee- The message "You were called on (date) at (time). The caller withheld their number.", can cause great problems with a lot of cold callers. I know that numbers should not be with held, but the knowledge that the number is held in the system can cause problems to number with-holders. All the called person has to do is to make the caller aware that they know that BT can retrieve the with held number and it's get out fast.
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Old 27th May 2018, 10:58 am   #24
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Default Re: Calling the old BT technicians...

I worked in BT on the exchanges and from the symptoms you describe the calling end is at fault especially if 1471 is not recording the call , the ring tone you hear at the calling end is generated by the exchange and has nothing to do with your phone , it all points to a wrong number being dialled
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Old 27th May 2018, 11:27 am   #25
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Default Re: Calling the old BT technicians...

In post #21 the OP reports that there was more than one master socket and therefore ringing capacitor connected to the line. This is a well known cause of ring trip.

However it doesn't fit in with details of the call not being given when 1471 is dialled. 1471 will record details of the LAST incoming call regardless of any line or phone fault.
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Old 28th May 2018, 10:52 am   #26
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Default Re: Calling the old BT technicians...

Just an observation, sometimes the number changes at the last minute (scam call?) the number listened to on 1471 doesn't tally up with last number that called in the service providers online log.

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Old 28th May 2018, 10:56 am   #27
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Default Re: Calling the old BT technicians...

Can you expand on that please. The Calling Line Identity (CLI) is sent to the terminating exchange in an Initial Final Address Message (IFAM). Once it's been sent I know of no way in which it can be changed.
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Old 28th May 2018, 11:06 am   #28
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Default Re: Calling the old BT technicians...

Had the following happen a few times, I'm home, the 'phone rings, I hear it ring but I don't answer, later on I dial 1471, a number is given with the time the call was placed, I write that down, later I check the service providers on line log of recent calls made to my 'phone, I check the last call (the one that caused the 'phone to ring earlier) the time tallies up but the number doesn't, search for the numbers on the internet suggests scam numbers.

Lawrence
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Old 28th May 2018, 11:53 am   #29
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Default Re: Calling the old BT technicians...

Not something I've come across, but I suspect it may be caused by two or more calls arriving in quick succession, with one or more calls being abandoned before the phone is heard to ring or the ringing from two calls could be perceived as a single call. Scammers do have a habit of calling twice or more. It's the way call centres work, originating more calls than they can deal with, then abandoning some. Couple that with a random CLI generator...…..

Unfortunately all my former BT colleagues have retired like me so there's no one I can ask.

Perhaps it's a young BT technician that's needed rather than an old one?
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Old 28th May 2018, 12:03 pm   #30
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Default Re: Calling the old BT technicians...

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Not something I've come across, but I suspect it may be caused by two or more calls arriving in quick succession, with one or more calls being abandoned before the phone is heard to ring or indeed stop rinnging.

Unfortunately all my former BT colleagues have retired like me so there's no one I can ask.

Perhaps it's a young BT technician that's needed rather than an old one?
Yes, I have also noticed that sometimes during a ringing session the ring sometimes very quickly "skips a beat" as though it's two sequential calls coming in, too often to be coincidence, intentional I would say to try and trick, and definitely scam stuff.

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Old 28th May 2018, 2:35 pm   #31
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Default Re: Calling the old BT technicians...

When an incomming call is lost, 1471 dialled from the incoming call does not reveal the number. This indicates that the call was not successful at the exchange. If the caller is hearing the ringing tone then it looks like a mis-routed call.

If you keep trying to call this number from a mobile and it does not ring, during the call try calling 1471 from the home number. If this connects to 1471 it proves it is a routing fault. If it connects to the incoming call (unlikely) then it could be a wiring fault.
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Old 28th May 2018, 10:50 pm   #32
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Default Re: Calling the old BT technicians...

Possibly a fault in the exchange, possibly on one of the "outlets" of the customer line card. Most of the time the exchange selects one of the (7) non faulty ones. Sometimes it selects the faulty one( which may be only intermittently faulty) if all of the other seven are in use.

Re. Comments above regarding ring trip. Possible intermittent ring trip, but it's unlikely the customer would be able to reproduce the fault reliably, and he is not reporting any other related symptoms, such as noise etc.
In any case 1471 would still register the call, even if it only gave half a ring.
The customers answerphone may not detect or answer in that case though, as many require a certain number of "rings" before they answer.

Quote:
In the end by chance I think I've found the problem. I was moving an internal socket (that was in situ when we bought the house) and I noticed that master sockets have been used throughout. I think this has been taking the REN over value and as such causing an intermittent problem
That wouldn't do your broadband speed any good either. More than one master and it can almost halve.
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Old 28th May 2018, 11:48 pm   #33
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Default Re: Calling the old BT technicians...

There's definitely something changing on the phone network recently, and I can't quite work it out, you know how when you ring somewhere with a switchboard, before you get answered you get the normal ringtone in your earpiece, then when they answer it changes. You ask to be put through to say extension 12, and while you are waiting, you still hear a ringing sound, but in some way it seems harsher, more growly. Well recently I've made a few calls and if they take a long time answering, the ringtone goes growly, not a fault, just like it's been switched somehow, very odd.
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Old 29th May 2018, 9:39 am   #34
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Default Re: Calling the old BT technicians...

Quote:
Originally Posted by philthespark View Post
'... you know how when you ring somewhere with a switchboard, before you get answered you get the normal ringtone in your earpiece, then when they answer it changes. You ask to be put through to say extension 12...'
Some of these systems use an audio recording of ring-tone for 'music-on-hold' rather than Vivaldi's 'Four Seasons' or whatever. It's a psychological trick to keep you on the line by suggesting an air of busy-ness and 'all-systems-go', making the caller think they're being dealt with and not stuck in a queue.
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Old 29th May 2018, 10:03 am   #35
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Default Re: Calling the old BT technicians...

Also, of course, any ringing tone you receive after the call is answered will be generated by the local PABX (even if a genuine ringing tone rather than a music-on-hold one), so there's no guarantee that it will sound like the one generated by the exchange prior to answer.

Even my little PABX generates a tone if I pick up an incoming call on one extension and then transfer it to another.
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Old 3rd Jun 2018, 8:21 pm   #36
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Default Re: Calling the old BT technicians...

Hi all.
Years ago, I would have said the possible cause is a late choice final selector, in your local Strowger exchange, not sending enough 75V AC down the line intermittently, due to a fault.
Anyway,back in the real world, boombox you mentioned two old 700 type phones in your set-up? I was wondering if they have been properly modified to work in parallel ? They should have high impedance bell coils (4000 ohms) instead of the usual 2000. You should check as it may be your phones have simply had a modern plug and cord fitted and your REN may be borderline.

Regards, Dave G0BZI
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Old 3rd Jun 2018, 9:11 pm   #37
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Default Re: Calling the old BT technicians...

The OP hasn't visited the forums since 18 April.
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Old 5th Jun 2018, 3:43 pm   #38
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Default Re: Calling the old BT technicians...

Still interested in the discussion, though, even though my original problem seems to have been largely fixed. Per my post in this thread from 17th April.

I still get quite a strong/feeble (alternating) ring from the wall mounted phone in the kitchen but God knows what that's all about!
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Old 23rd Jun 2018, 11:28 pm   #39
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Default Re: Calling the old BT technicians...

I tried to post this before, but have you checked your G.P.O. Phones have been properly modified to include high impedance bell coils which should be 4000 ohms
If not, you could be on the on limit of your REN.
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Old 27th Feb 2019, 5:57 pm   #40
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Default Not vintage :-( Sometimes when I call my landline, my landline doesn't ring!

I've posted about this before and I thought I'd got it cracked - but sadly I haven't.

Basically sometimes when I call my home landline, be it from a mobile or another landline, it doesn't ring in the house. I think the problem is more fundamental than a faulty bell, though, because the answering machine (a modern Panasonic unit) doesn't answer the call either when the threshold number of rings is reached.

We have connected to this line two 746 GPO telephones and the aforementioned Panasonic cordless with built in answering machine.

I am fairly convinced the call isn't actually reaching my master socket.

Does anyone know how I'd go about troubleshooting this? Sadly I'm with Utility Warehouse so I get the feeling having a middleman between me and BT won't help things.

I have a timestamp record for when my "phantom call" didn't connect.

Thanks

(Also, feel free to remove, as this is definitely not a vintage problem!)

Last edited by Station X; 27th Feb 2019 at 6:09 pm. Reason: Threads merged.
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