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Old 11th Oct 2012, 8:22 pm   #21
FERNSEH
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Default Re: Earliest BBC2 Sets?

Hi Neil,
That's the one. Very nice set. There was a 23" version with doors.

DFWB.
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Old 12th Oct 2012, 12:24 pm   #22
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Default Re: Earliest BBC2 Sets?

I have scanned some of the earliest Pye dual standard models complete with dates. Service manuals were usually issued a month or two after the actual release of a new model.

The 700DU could be supplied with the UHF tuner fitted from late 1961 and must be the first true fully functional dual standard receiver.

The original 11U series was released earlier than I had thought, September 1962. The model 15/U had the nasty plastic cabinet that housed the model 3 the following year.

August 1963 saw the release of more versions of the 11U including the nasty plastic model 3/U. The flimsy plastic clips used to break and the only cure was to replace the entire cabinet. The receivers were often encountered with backs held on with yards of plastic tape! Horrible!! More to follow. John.
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Old 12th Oct 2012, 12:33 pm   #23
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Default Re: Earliest BBC2 Sets?

Hi John,
I remember that horrible plastic cabinet set, the model 3. It just fell to pieces, metal clips breaking off. Actually, we had the same problems with the model 1.

DFWB.
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Old 12th Oct 2012, 12:34 pm   #24
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Default Re: Earliest BBC2 Sets?

Scans of the 1963 manual and the final Pye versions in August 1964 including the rather strange 'Shutterswitch' model, the 23UF.


The 11U chassis was also fitted into numerous Ferranti, Ekco and Invicta models together with many special versions for rental outlets. Transistor UHF tuners were fitted in some very late models.

A television/radiogram version model 28 was also produced in 1965 an excellent version of which can be seen at the VWM. Regards, John.
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Old 12th Oct 2012, 12:37 pm   #25
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Default Re: Earliest BBC2 Sets?

It looks from the illustrations that the model 12/U also employed the nasty cabinet. It made their second hand almost value zero!

I would add that the chassis was very reliable above all predictable. It also gave very good pictures. The UHF performance was not so good due to Pye's own UHF tuner. [HOPT] Later versions had much higher gain on UHF.J.
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Old 12th Oct 2012, 10:18 pm   #26
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Default Re: Earliest BBC2 Sets?

Wireless World for October, 1961, in its National Radio Show Review, mentions both the Ekco (T398) and Pye (no model number given) dual-standard TV receivers that were on display there.

WW notes that both OEMs assumed that the TAC proposed 625-line standard (later System I) would become reality, as it had not at the time been ratified. Pye used a 38.9 MHz vision IF, the same as for the Gerber 625-line system, presumably because the UK industry had not yet done the homework wherein it landed on 39.5 MHz. (As an aside, I have a vague notion that 38.9v/32.9s MHz IFs were used in South Africa for System I receivers.) Also, I wonder if the Ekco and Pye receivers had 3-gang UHF tuners. I think the 4-gang type might have appeared after the UK 625-line standard was cast in stone and the desired receiver parameters (including 53 dB (?) image rejection) had been articulated. Cyldon’s first UHF tuner, the UT, was 3-gang and I should think was initially aimed at the export market.

The Pye dual-standard receiver was stated to have a 4.25 MHz video bandwidth, as determined by the IF bandpass curve, which seems a bit pessimistic. Roughly, that would have limited horizontal definition to about the same level as 2.75 MHz on 405-lines, which was probably reached by the better receivers. I should have thought that at least 5.0 MHz would have been a more reasonable target for the early 625-line receivers. Perhaps, though Pye has simply carried over established practice from its export 625-line Gerber system receivers.

Once dual-standard receivers became the norm, I suspect that some makers downgraded the 405-line sections as compared with pre-dual standard practice, for example abandoning black level agc. If so, this would be analogous to the downgrading of AM sections in radio receivers once FM-AM combinations became the norm.

Curiously, the same WW article moved on to describing the colour television display at the same show, and included comment to the effect that positive vision modulation was better for NTSC colour systems. But it seems that the editorial staff was not game enough to ask as to why, that being the case, the TAC had opted for negative modulation for its proposed 625-line system. In its November, 1961 issue, WW reported upon the French Radio Show, and noted the French decision to go with positive modulation for UHF 625-line TV broadcasts, but made no editorial comment about that choice.

Cheers,
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Old 13th Oct 2012, 7:05 am   #27
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Default Re: Earliest BBC2 Sets?

Quote:
Originally Posted by neil29 View Post
Can anyone tell me what model this set is and when it was released?. as there are no obvious numbers on it. thanks,Neil.
Hello Neil,

Even if there is no brand or model number printed on the set's back cover, there ought to be a small rectangular thin aluminium plate with a clear plastic cover over it, fitted on the metalwork between the two large printed panels. This should be immediately visible once you remove the back cover.

In Pye, Pam and Invicta sets, it would be a specific colour (Pye = blue, Invicta = green and Pam -= red). It would show the model number and serial number of the TV.

Ekco and Ferranti sets of this era would have the same metal plate but usually of simpler design, with no specific brand colour but still showing the model and serial numbers.

Does your set have such a plate? I would think even a specially made (for a third party) set would have a model and serial number plate.

Regards,

Dazzlevision
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Old 13th Oct 2012, 7:44 am   #28
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Default Re: Earliest BBC2 Sets?

It may well have a plate or the fixing holes where one had been. It may have been removed if the receiver had done a moonlight flit complete with it's viewer....

I can remember realigning the sound stages on the Pye 700D when BBC2 first came alive in 1964. I was just 16 at the time. The service data for 1962 shows the sound aligned to 6mc/s so I guess this was soon changed.

The UHF performance was also downgraded because the I.F. output from the UHF tuner was connected directly to the I.F. panel instead of being amplified by the mixer valve in the VHF tuner, as was later practise. The VHF tuner employed in the 700D was the miniature incremental type manuafctured by Pye from around 1958 and did not have provision for I.F. injection from a UHF tuner. I had a lot of these receivers through my hands and it's plastic pig the model 1. J.

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Old 13th Oct 2012, 12:56 pm   #29
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Default Re: Earliest BBC2 Sets?

Hi all,

I now realise that the number 7069 was the model number thanks to john . Also it looks as if there never was a plate on this set, judging by the holes on the chassis in the picture below.

Thanks,
Neil.
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Old 13th Oct 2012, 7:16 pm   #30
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Default Re: Earliest BBC2 Sets?

Hmm, interesting. It does look as if the two screw holes have never had self tapping screws in them, but there is a number stamped on the chassis where the plate is normally fitted and the Pye unique chassis identification "RV" number is visible too. These Pye/Ekco group first common chassis sets had many variations/mods over their production period.

Regards,

Dazzlevision
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Old 14th Oct 2012, 9:11 am   #31
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Default Re: Earliest BBC2 Sets?

I cannot remember a plate on this particular Invicta. There were several versions of the 7069 the only difference being the finish of the CRT surround.

I used to be a 'stand in' for Gibbards at their Brixton branch in Stockwell Road in 1965 travelling over to the service dept on my Vellocette Venom motorbike. The large service area was situated
under a block of 1930's flats. They used to get into a service nightmare and poor old me at the age of 17 had to go with another guy to sort it out! We were a sort of travelling solution.

I always remember a huge cardboard cut out of the 'Gay Cavalier' complete with feathers and sword that greeted customers as you entered the showrooms. They were very popular rental receivers and were known as the 'Cav' to us service guys. Happy Days! John.
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Old 14th Oct 2012, 9:19 am   #32
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Default Re: Earliest BBC2 Sets?

Just as an aside, that Pye V700d is a near twin to the once ubiquitous in rural Ireland single standard Pye "six-two-five", their bog-standard System I VHF only television. Most lasted for over a decade until replaced by colour televisions often fed by cable systems bringing BBC1 and 2 and Ulster Television - a massive cultural leap forward from one channel (RTE)!
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Old 14th Oct 2012, 9:25 am   #33
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Default Re: Earliest BBC2 Sets?

Pye 11U stock faults:
1 Mains dropper.
2 Poor BBC2 sound due to L28 unwinding and slipping down former. Remove can, dab winding with
Bostic and retune'
3 Preset contrast control [270K] burning up badly causing damage to wiring. Replace with
680K.
4 Feed through ceramic feeding heater voltage to UHF tuner going S/C robbing valves
in lower end of heater chain.
5 Frame cramp. O/C bias cap.
6 Knobs broken off rear controls.
7 High level tapped contrast control going O/C. Very common.
8 Tangled UHF drive cord. [DON'T GO THERE!]
9 Fizzing EHT rectifier valve base due to dampness usually caused by nicotine and the
dreaded paraffin heaters.
10 Exploded mains filter capacitor.
11 Lack of height due to series resistor from boost rail going high, 1.2M I think.

That is all I can remember. One of the more reliable dual standard receivers.

Regards, John.
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Old 14th Oct 2012, 10:13 am   #34
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Default Re: Earliest BBC2 Sets?

Moving away from the 11U another very early example of a dual standard receiver is the Ekco/Ferranti chassis from 1962 just before the Pye takeover of E.K.Cole. The model pictured is the Ferranti TC1082 with motor driven tuning on VHF and remote control. It still performs quite well and was last switched on during the last hour of analogue television some months back but still burst into life without a fuss.
Regards, John
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Old 15th Oct 2012, 10:18 am   #35
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Default Re: Earliest BBC2 Sets?

Just came across these - but don't remember dates they were published!!

Cheers, MM
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Old 16th Oct 2012, 4:26 am   #36
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Default Re: Earliest BBC2 Sets?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ajs_derby View Post
Some time ago (possibly around the time of the 405-line shutdown) I remember a radio programme where someone was talking of "BBC2-only" TV sets, and asking if anybody still had one? Duuuh, no! because of course eventually, BBC1 and ITV1 went 625-line and moved onto the UHF band; so even a single-standard UHF set would eventually be able to receive all three channels (four from 2 November 1982, of course).
I imagine though that very few that single-standard (625-line) receivers were offered before the start of BBC1 and ITV UHF broadcasts in 1969, and even then perhaps there were not many for a few years. The B&O 3000 (colour) comes to mind as one that I think was sold in the UK when BBC2 was the only program it could receive, although I am not 100% sure.

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Old 19th Oct 2012, 11:59 am   #37
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Default Re: Earliest BBC2 Sets?

Hi
That's probably true as Decca, Philips and Bush each produced a 22" dual-standard colour for the parts of the country that couldn't receive all the 625-line signals but still wanted colour and a modern-looking set.
They were the CTV22, the G22K503 and the CTV174D respectively. All very rare - I know Mikey 405 would kill for the Bush!
Glyn
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Old 19th Oct 2012, 3:45 pm   #38
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Default Re: Earliest BBC2 Sets?

The Bush TV191D and TV193D dual standard models were still available in 1972. I remember my TV191D had "made in Eire" on the front panel.

DFWB.
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Old 20th Oct 2012, 8:30 am   #39
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Default Re: Earliest BBC2 Sets?

In the 1970s British Relay "made" a single-standard set by putting a Pye 11U chassis into a new Invicta 20" or 24" cabinet and tube.

These were rented to new customers with the implication that they were new sets, but without actually saying so in so many words!

When we went on field calls some of the more astute customers asked why the chassis was a sticky mess covered in fluff and dust!
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Old 20th Oct 2012, 9:25 am   #40
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Default Re: Earliest BBC2 Sets?

Rediffusion did the same trick with the MK10 aerial sets. Poor performance but looked very nice!
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