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Old 25th Apr 2011, 3:04 pm   #41
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Default Re: Restorers dream part 2 the chassis.

Hi,

Many thanks Howard for the information; I'll buy a can and try it out.

I've been too busy around the bungalow to do any work on the chassis; its rare to have such beautiful weather so I'm making the most of it. The chassis won't be forgotten though because I want to see this TV working.

Kind regards, Col.
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Old 7th Sep 2011, 3:47 pm   #42
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Default Re: Restorers dream part 2 the chassis.

Hi

With many thanks to a nudge by Andrew (Andrewwausfa) I put the T311 chassis back onto the workshop bench yesterday so hopefully I can resume work on this epic Ekco restoration.

No sooner had the chassis landed on the bench frustration set in. It was a dire day outside with lashing rain and terrific wind on our valley side; the door bell rang and I answered it to a neighbour then got dragged into a car breakdown. An hour later after a soaking and being blown around; I was seated in peace and drying out at the computer when yet another white begging bag (Help the aged) was thrust through our letterbox again distracting me. I did eventually manage to print off all the information kindly given to me by forum members in this thread regarding repairing the chassis. I then spent a while going over the thread to try to pick up where I had left off.

This morning started off very well; I switched on the fan heater and was soon comfortable in the workshop and spent time fitting the LOPT kindly given to me a while ago by Mike (Mikeymushradio). I expected lots of problems because the original LOPT housing had disintegrated to powder breaking a number of the LOPT connections and as this is my first ever TV chassis restoration I felt very much the novice. I was surprised though because fitting the LOPT was relatively easy; two connections were dead easy these being the two valve top caps; the thick screened wire was also easy to solder in place. Two thin wires coming out of the LOPT base were joined to their respective colour coded original wires which I stripped back then added tiny coils using my home made miniature wire winder slipping on heat shrink tubing before soldering then shrinking the tubing using a match. I even think Iíve connected the LOPT correctly which has cheered me up. The U25 supplied with the LOPT was left in place saving more work and I have a spare should this prove to be faulty.

Then I had a ďsenior momentĒ I went into the garage to collect the coils I had removed from the neck of the CRT but could not find them. I then checked the front bedroom but still couldnít locate them neither could I find them in the workshop. I knew they were stored in a margarine container for safety so once again into the garage but they remained elusive; half an hour later I found them grinning at me sitting on top of a large bobbin of winding wire in the workshop where I had placed them out of harms way. I must be losing the plot!!

I had already mounted the CRT into a sturdy wooden frame and as this was large I had to clear both my scopes and other items from the bench end then I carried the CRT from the bedroom and it only just fitted onto the bench as can be seen in the picture. This took care of the morning.

After dinner I had just made a start on the computer as I wanted to have a look at the pictures I had taken of the chassis when yet another white begging bag was thrust through the letterbox (Safetoday). This bag was dumped in the bin and I had just got seated when the door bell rang. Another neighbour was invited in and this time she was enquiring if I would be prepared to reduce the size of a very expensive wooden fireplace that had been imported from China years ago; it only (?) wanted 6Ē removing from the center then re-joining and made good. She was willing to pay for me to do the work but I politely said I didnít want the job and I didnít need the money; I wonder who will be visiting tomorrow?

I find it very hard to settle down on a project as I am constantly broken off which shatters my concentration; I should feel flattered that so many people would like me to do work for them but in reality it is now all becoming very wearing indeed. If I have the time I donít mind helping anyone out but my neighbours are downright cheeky and seem to think because I have the machinery and a bit of knowledge that Iím obliged to drop everything for them. Being retired is hard work and seven days a week. Sorry if I sound to be moaning but there is no let up living here from all these interruptions.

Now the chassis is back on the bench Iíll stick with it and over the next few days will settle down to working on it; next job is to add the coils onto the CRT neck and connect everything up; Iíll remove the mains cap if present by simply snipping it out; the chassis already looks a great deal better as Iíve tidied it up by blowing off with an airline and polished a few bits of aluminium; I also wiped a lot of the cables with a meths soaked rag this morning as my hands became dirty every time I touched them.

I canít believe it was April I last touched this chassis but Iím here again and rambling so everything in the world is good.

Kind regards, Col.
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Old 7th Sep 2011, 4:05 pm   #43
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Default Re: Restorers dream part 2 the chassis.

Nice to know it isn't just my parts and tools which enjoy hiding from me. Start worrying when you're searching for the screw-driver that's in your hand.

Glad to see that work has resumed and hopefully you'll be able to crack on before it gets too cold.

All the best

Joe
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Old 7th Sep 2011, 4:08 pm   #44
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Default Re: Restorers dream part 2 the chassis.

Without being too far OT ,being friendly with the neighbours is good for one's health according to the Scottish Express!

Possibly not good for restorations though.

David
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Old 7th Sep 2011, 8:53 pm   #45
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Default Re: Restorers dream part 2 the chassis.

Welcome back Col, as it's now looking like winter it is time to ge back to the real hobby.
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Old 7th Sep 2011, 9:49 pm   #46
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Default Re: Restorers dream part 2 the chassis.

Well done Col I hope you didn't mind my cheeky nudge but I remembered that lovely cabinet and thought it might to be re-united with the chassis.

Disturbances. All too familiar in my house too.

Regards - Andrew
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Old 7th Sep 2011, 10:03 pm   #47
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Default Re: Restorers dream part 2 the chassis.

Hi,

Thanks Joe; we are not alone in losing the plot; I can't even put it down to age being only 64.

I totally agree David that it is good to get on with the neighbours I wish someone (Scottish Express?) would tell mine. Some of my neighbours ignore me but are very friendly when they need help.

You are so right Ed; thanks for the welcome back and yes it is already getting cooler in the workshop but as yet the fan heater can get on top of it but not for much longer I fear.

I've made quite a bit more progress this afternoon by fitting all the coils onto the CRT and I realized it didn't have a mains cable fitted so cut a new length and fitted a plug fused at 3A. The on/off switch appeared to be in good condition with a healthy click as it was operated but when I checked for connection with the meter it was O/C on all four tags? I tried and tried but couldn't obtain a reading so removed the switch and found a contact had blown through overload. I took a picture and even made progress with my camera as I found the super macro setting; the switch doesn't bother me too much and will be the next job to sort out then perhaps I can hook up the Variac. I am a bit concerned why the switch blew though so will be watching for signs of stress when power is applied. All in all a good day with plenty more to follow.

Kind regards, Col.
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Old 7th Sep 2011, 10:10 pm   #48
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Default Re: Restorers dream part 2 the chassis.

Colin, the switch probably died due to the capacitor that sits across the mains being short circuit.....A common failure!

HTH
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Old 7th Sep 2011, 11:51 pm   #49
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Default Re: Restorers dream part 2 the chassis.

The switch on my T311 was o/c. Just needed operating a few times and a bit of mains to make it work again. If you can get a shot of switch cleaner in there it won't hurt.
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Old 8th Sep 2011, 10:50 am   #50
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Default Re: Restorers dream part 2 the chassis.

Hi,

Many thanks for the nudge Andrew and I don't think it was cheeky so nudge away any-time; thanks for the kind comments and hopefully this TV will be working before too long.

Many thanks for the advice Sean and I will indeed remove the mains cap before applying power; I hope the overload was due to such a simple fault but I'm also concerned as the original LOPT was so badly charred; no doubt the answer will be found once I hook up the Variac.

Many thanks also Jeffrey for your welcome advice. I did operate the switch many times and it had a very positive feel with a good loud click so I expected it to be in good working order. It was only when I used my meter to determine the connections that I could not obtain a continuity reading across any pair of the four tags; I tried lots of times as I thought it rather odd for both pairs to be O/C; I was actually just checking to establish which tag to solder the mains live to.

The picture of the switch shows what I found when I opened it up; the end of one of the strip contacts has been completely blown away by what appears to be an overload hence it would never make contact; I'm still rather puzzled though why there is no continuity between the other two tags but I'll play around with it today and add the results later.

I do appreciate all these suggestions and advice; I've already printed off the long list kindly supplied by John together with other very useful advice supplied by members and will use this to work from.

I'm aware many members reading these notes will too be TV novices and if they move over to TV then perhaps they will find similar mains switch problems. I have experience of working on live radio chassis and in the past have connected power directly to a chassis using a remote switch being very aware of the danger. I am keen to see first light on the this TV but will take my time and have no intention of taking silly dangerous risks to do so and would caution other novices to resist such temptation as it could prove fatal. My first test on power up is always to check if the chassis is live; I have a number of mains connection options these being the usual in series 100W lamp; Variac and also an isolation transformer the circuit is further protected by a 1A fuse. I'd rather be careful and take my time than be sorry.

Whilst on safety and new to TV can experienced members please advise on any danger associated with the CRT covering material as I understand this is live holding the charge for a period even though switched off and if so because I'm working in such close confines with it how is it best discharged? I did say I would be asking all the silly questions but this is how I learn. Thank you for your patience.

It's time I did something useful like sorting out the switch.

Kind regards, Col.
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Old 8th Sep 2011, 11:11 am   #51
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Default Re: Restorers dream part 2 the chassis.

Hi Col,

Glad it sounds like you're getting close to giving it some beans!

The black coating on the CRT should be earthed somehow. (This is shown as the thick line on the outside of the CRT returned to chassis on the circuit diagrm attached on P.1 of this thread).

This is the carbon like painted on stuff. Most CRTs have a little harness of wires touching this that are then earthed to chassis. This coating forms one plate of a capacitor (the other being on the inside of the CRT). The capacitor is charged up 10,000 times a second by the LOPT and stores enough energy so that one side of the screen doesn't look darker than the other.

I'm not sure of the exact connections on your set as there is that funny metrosil stick thing as well, one end of which should also be grounded. A close-up photo of where that connects to CRT top cap and the other end of the stick's connection would be informative.

This capacitor can hold a fair charge so this is why you should discharge the CRT before working on it. That was part of the job that used to scare the bejusus out of me. Now I just use a large insulated screwdriver with the shaft croc-clipped to the chassis and spark the CRT, wait a few minutes and repeat. If you want to be gentler I used to have a big meaty 100k resistor soldered to the end of a screwdriver and used to spark to that to avoid drawing too much current but I managed to drop that down the back of the bench...

I'd always use an isolating transformer with sets like these. Even if you think the chassis is on mains neutral if the switch blows again then it might blow out the neutral side and leave everything floating on live!

So I'd go isolating tranny => variac => lamp limiter first with this set as it looks like it has "previous". The lamp limiter will at least afford protection to your variac and transformer!

Can't wait to see what for the next installment!

Dom
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Old 8th Sep 2011, 11:30 am   #52
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Default Re: Restorers dream part 2 the chassis.

Jeffrey is right (as usual!) that mains can get through things that a low-voltage meter or continuity tester show being o/c.

On my AC/DC radios I always by-pass the neutral side of the switch anyway as the last thing you want is for that to be open and the live side closed. This means I only need one working pole.

- Joe
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Old 8th Sep 2011, 11:47 am   #53
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Default Re: Restorers dream part 2 the chassis.

Dominic has covered most of the safety stuff here. Apart from the CRT earthing it's really no worse than a DAC90.

Bridge out the mains switch. You can come back to that later. Forget about the metrosil. The sets work perfectly well without them.

My own approach is to run up the heater chain and get all the heaters glowing nicely on full mains before starting on the HT.
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Old 8th Sep 2011, 8:20 pm   #54
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Default Re: Restorers dream part 2 the chassis.

Hi,

Thank you Dom for taking the time to add such a comprehensive reply it is much appreciated and Iím glad I asked the question; all points duly noted and Iíll also use your method to check the CRT is fully discharged before handling.

As you requested Iíve taken a few pictures of the Metrosil connections and these are included below. The Metrosil is simply located at its loose end into a metal bracket not being nipped down tightly and I think it is also secured inside the cabinet by a clip. The two leads connect one to the side of the CRT and the other by a socket arrangement into the LOPT by the U25 rectifier sharing one of the connections. Itís interesting to learn that the Metrosil can be omitted; thanks for the information Jeffrey; I had already connected it so will leave it in place but I would be interested to learn of its intended function?

Iíve made good uninterrupted progress today. I did consider by-passing the switch as you kindly suggested Jeffrey but decided I would eventually have to sort the switch out at some point might as well do the job up front. I had an identical switch in stock it being coupled to a pot so it wasnít a big job to transfer the switch to the pot on the chassis. Joeís tip about not switching the neutral sounded excellent so I shorted one pole of the switch to chassis by simply soldering a wire to the two tags; this meant I could still connect the new mains lead to the switch; out of curiosity I checked for continuity and both poles gave good readings but once again thanks for the advice to both Jeffrey and Joe about testing these switches. I did take the opportunity to blast some switch cleaner in before fitting. The new mains cable was quickly fitted; I did have a look around the rear of the chassis for a grommet to mark the entry of the cable but couldnít find one so for the time being I just soldered it in place.

As my isolation transformer and 100W lamp are hard wired into the workshop control panel I decided to use a spare lamp holder and the Variac to apply power and made up the circuit as can be seen in the picture.

At last I could switch on and set the Variac at 100V to start with leaving it powered for quarter of an hour but as there were no signs of stress I increased the voltage to 240V over the next quarter of an hour and the 100W lamp lit up like a laser the chassis wasnít objecting; the only noise was the Variac buzz. As the valves were still dirty I could only see one of the small valves lit up and after leaving the chassis under power for a while I then switched off.

I felt at a number of the valves and a few were warm with the big valve which I think could be a PY32 being the warmest; it only has 32 remaining the rest of the details being lost. I did not touch the U25 but the other two valves within the LOPT housing felt cold. This brought me up to tea time so I knocked off for the day but had enjoyed myself tinkering around and I plan to spend more time on the chassis tomorrow; my friend Tony (Aerodyne) has already suggested I power up and take voltage readings on the electrolytics so Iíll tip the chassis up to gain access. I did check to see if the big electrolytic can had warmed up but it remained cold.

This being my first TV there is a lot to take in all at once so please bear with me whilst I learn to walk; I am making steady progress and with all your generous help Iím sure to win through in the end. Iím now locked into this project and totally committed to getting the set working however long it takes me. Iím pleased to have put 240V into it without suffering a big bang or blue flashes.

Thanks once again everyone for all your valued input. Out of interest Iíve just bought a new External hard drive at 1TB for storing all my radio/TV information as Iíve become fed up with going through stacks of CDís whilst trying to find pictures or notes; its time I got organized better; the drive is due to arrive shortly and at around £58 delivered I was amazed at how little it cost as my normal hard drive I bought a few years ago whilst upgrading my computer cost £80 for 80 GB.

Kind regards, Col.
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Old 8th Sep 2011, 9:21 pm   #55
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Default Re: Restorers dream part 2 the chassis.

Excellent. You have applied mains without smoke. The heater chain looks intact. I'm a little concerned that the LOP valve and boost diode (in the LOP can) are cold. They have fairly hefty heaters and should get slightly warm from those alone. When they are running properly they get hot. I think you will need a couple of 100W bulbs in parallel to get things going. A 100W bulb takes about 400mA from the mains. The heater chain alone takes 300mA so there will be nothing like full mains on the set, possibly not even enough to get the valves emitting properly.

From memory I think there are separate main and HT fuses. I would be tempted to put the lamp limiter in the HT circuit only, instead of the fuse. This means the heaters would be running at full power while the HT was still protected by the lamp. I am aware that the John Wakely "Real Man" school would say just give the whole set full mains and see what happens. I'm still a devout coward.

Once the heaters are at something like full power the next step is to check that HT is present. If it is, there may well be minor noises from the speaker and a buzz from the field timebase. If your ears can still hear that high you may even hear line whistle.

The metrosil is supposed to improve EHT regulation but seems a waste of time to me.
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Old 9th Sep 2011, 7:52 am   #56
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Default Re: Restorers dream part 2 the chassis.

It's an Ekco. Just plug it in!
Seriously Colin, do it the way you are comfortable with. They are very robust with little to go pop so should not come up with any hasties. Regards, John.
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Old 9th Sep 2011, 8:51 am   #57
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Default Re: Restorers dream part 2 the chassis.

Col

If the 30P4 (or 30P19) and U191 are cold, the screen feed resistor on the 30P? might be OC. Scratch its top cap with an insulated screwdriver - if no trace of a spark, the line OP stage isn't running so it's safe to see if there's HT on the two top caps.
If not, then it might be an error in the wiring on the replaced LOPTx.

Don't worry about the U25 as it won't be doing anything at all at the moment.

I'm assuming that there is HT present and you have sufficient mains input re Jeffrey's post.

I won't see your replies for a few days as you'll know.
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Old 9th Sep 2011, 11:39 am   #58
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Default Re: Restorers dream part 2 the chassis.

Hi Col,

On the CRT earthing question, firstly I'd make sure there is a good earth link between the metal rim of the CRT and the chassis, that seems to be the main earthing point. Then I'd just loop some bare wire or braid from one corner of the metal rim to the other making sure it contacts with the black paint but is well away from all bare area around the HT cap. The contact doesn't have to be great but just touching.

The Metrosil is a Voltage Dependant Resistor which lowers its resistance as the voltage across it increases. The idea behind that is to keep the EHT on the screen roughly constant, otherwise when there is a bright scene the voltage is pulled low and if there is a dark scene it goes high again. This causes "blooming" where bright scenes stretch and go out of focus whereas the darker ones shrink and come back into focus. If you ever watched top of the pops on a rubbish telly in the 70's it looked like someone was fiddling with the camera zoom in time with the disco lights! It will work without this but it is a nice addition and this being a top-notch set it would be good to have all its faculties intact!

I'd double check that the Radio/TV switchover switch is set right and working - it disconnects the heaters of the last few valves and the CRT - you never know....Did you wind up to full mains or leave it at 100V?

Jeffrey is right the lamp will be eating roughly half the mains, so I wouldn't expect it to work well if at all with the lamp in. Either a few in parallel or now you know it's not going to explode it might be time to just run it on the Variac if you're comfortable.

If not I can't see a seperate HT fuse but you could cheat and unplug the HT voltage selector and put the lamp in series with that, this would leave the valve heaters running straight off the mains but would run the "electronics" though the lamp...Personally I'd do a John and give it mains and spot where the smoke comes from!

One thing to watch when running up slowly is the seperate 500mA fuse in line with the Line Output valve - this kept blowing on the last telly I was playing with and after spending ages messing about (and using up my supply of fuses) I realised that it was just that the set didn't like being run at low voltages, I popped in my last fuse and just plugged it straight in and it worked...well the fuse didn't blow!

Dom
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Old 9th Sep 2011, 12:09 pm   #59
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Default Re: Restorers dream part 2 the chassis.

Hi,

Thanks Jeffrey; the HT is completely missing but please see the following.

Thank you Dom for the interesting explanation about the Metrosil; I will leave it in place; it just goes to show how much of a novice I am on TV as I initially thought at first sight of the Metrosil that it must be some kind of aerial!! I'll also take your advice and ensure a good connection between CRT and chassis.

I've also noted your suggestions Mike so thanks for these and I'll take them into the workshop; at this rate with all the expert advice I'm gratefully receiving I'll know more about the workings of a TV in a couple of weeks than what I know about radio gained over a lot of years finding things out the hard way.

I like your style John and it's rather funny because Steve P likes to just plug in and stand back as he told me whilst here with a huge smile on his face.

I've now taken your advice John and Dom (and Steve's) and have just been in the workshop and plugged the set directly into the mains; at least it got a result as there was a bright internal flash in the PY32 envelope near the bottom and the lot went dead. The 3A fuse had blown so like a sucker I blew a second 3A fuse. I've resisted putting a 6" nail across and unless anyone knows how to give the kiss of life to one of these valves I'll buy another but am now held up; perhaps by-passing with a suitable diode would get power into the set but please bear in mind my novice status but also that I'm no shrinking violet either and always willing to experiment.

I had never been interested in TV but this has now got my full attention and I'm enjoying tinkering around with it. Thanks everyone.

My new External hard drive has just arrived so yet another toy to play with how do I stand so much excitement.

Kind regards, Col.
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Old 9th Sep 2011, 12:10 pm   #60
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Default Re: Restorers dream part 2 the chassis.

I would start with 180 to 200volts on the variac at least and monitor HT on main smoothing bomb (cap).The name is "aquadag" that the crt has on it.

David
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