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Old 14th Oct 2017, 11:29 pm   #1
Oldcodger
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Default Router WI FI

Just updated from ADSL to VDSL and new router is dual frequency (2.4/5 Ghz). Would I gain any speed increase in updating, given that my router is almost six feet, through a wooden floor beneath me.
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Old 14th Oct 2017, 11:50 pm   #2
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Default Re: Router WI FI

You don't need to update anything. Wifi devices will use the 5GHz frequency if they support it. You may or may not see an increase in speed - there are many variables.
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Old 15th Oct 2017, 12:17 pm   #3
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Default Re: Router WI FI

My access point is dual band, I just set up the clients to connect to either band and let the client choose the best connection.
Without checking I don’t know which is in use, on the occasions I have checked in the past the connection have used either band, sometimes 5 and others 2.4.
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Old 15th Oct 2017, 3:24 pm   #4
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Default Re: Router WI FI

Even VDSL speeds (tens of Mb/s) are slower than 802.11n (2.4GHz; 300Mb/s). So, unless you only have an 802.11b-capable card in your computer, you probably will not notice any difference by upgrading to 5GHz (802.11ac).
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Old 15th Oct 2017, 5:11 pm   #5
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Default Re: Router WI FI

It can help in very congested wifi areas.
 
Old 15th Oct 2017, 5:12 pm   #6
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Default Re: Router WI FI

The main advantage of 5GHz is that fewer devices use it, so there should be less contention if you live in a location with lots of busy wifi networks. However, as Julie says, the limiting factor is usually broadband speed, even with FTTC.
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Old 15th Oct 2017, 8:51 pm   #7
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Default Re: Router WI FI

This is true. Other wireless networks using the same channel will be in contention with you -- those 300Mb/s are still shared with your neighbours within radio range, and in utterly pathological cases might restrict your fibre-to-the-cabinet speed. If so, an 802.11ac card might improve your throughput ..... at least, until all the neighbours move to 5GHz and start maxing the bandwidth out there!

Ethernet is based on polite conversations at dinner parties. You can only be understood if nobody else is speaking at the same time as you; so some simple rules of etiquette are followed to ensure everyone gets their turn. You can only begin speaking during the silence between sentences (or packets of data). If two people start talking at the same time as each other, they both shut up for a random amount of time before opening their mouths again, and hopefully one will start before the other and so get the chance to complete a sentence. Or someone else might have started a conversation with some other one else in the meantime, in which case you must then wait for them to finish before you can speak. (This is as opposed to the earlier Token Ring network, which relied on passing a "conch" -- the token after which it is named -- around, and only the holder of the token / conch is allowed to speak, handing it on after each sentence. Ethernet won out because it more closely fit real-life use cases; real-life network traffic tends to arise in short, sparse bursts, and passing a token creates a permanent overhead. Also, if a machine in a Token Ring network goes offline at the wrong moment, a frantic game of Hunt-The-Conch ensues, during which no real data can be sent anywhere until it is declared lost for good and a new one blessed. A machine in an Ethernet network can go offline and come online anytime, provided that it can do so without compromising the integrity of the rest of the network.)

Early wired Ethernet used a single coaxial cable, with only one of all the computers on the same network able to talk to any of the others at a time at up to 10Mb/s. That speed was shared between all conversations on the network. If there was a router on the network, it would collect all messages intended for machines on other networks that it knew about to arrange onward distribution, and deliver messages intended for machines on this network. (Think of a telegraph operator seated at the dinner table, connected to and able to exchange messages with one or more operators at parties in different houses on the same night.)

Modern wired Ethernet uses switches which are smart enough to determine from the headers of each incoming packet, on each port, where it should be sent, and to send it only there (i.e., a primitive form of routing in itself). To return to the "dinner table" analogy, think of computers connected to the same switch as drawing into separate huddles, capable of having a conversation out of earshot of anyone not in the same group; and then each group can exchange one sentence at a time. Each piece of cable is good for 100Mb/s, and machine A can exchange data with machine B at 100Mb/s while machines C and D are also exchanging data at 100Mb/s. If machine D wants to talk to both machines E and F, they have to share its 100Mb/s between them.

Wireless Ethernet essentially returns to the Bad Old Days of co-ax, and brings in encryption to get around the obvious fact that it's all just one big network / dining table and anyone can hear every word than anyone else is saying. Any two devices on the same frequency and within radio range of one another will necessarily block out any other devices on that frequency and within radio range of either, while they are communicating. You can't eavesdrop on other people's conversations that are none of your business because every family is speaking a different language, but there can still be only one person speaking at a time.
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Old 15th Oct 2017, 10:27 pm   #8
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Default Re: Router WI FI

Thanks ,folks. Although my router is set to Auto and selects an unused channel, I've noticed at times that it will sit on the same channel as local users, and I've had to manually move the channel to stop problems. I've also noticed that local users always seem to use the same channel( locally they are all on VM using ch11).
Router position is a compromise for PC and TV .Ideas of using 5GHZ was that perhaps I'd get less problems with interference, but from experience on cordless phones ,I questioned if range on 5GHZ might be inhibited by walls etc.
Julie- I'm up on radio interferance as I did some work on a military radio in the late 70's ,where tha answer to jamming was to stick out a LOT of RF. Following on that was frequency hopping. Personally, if I only wanted to provide BB at the PC, I'd route phone line as a 2w from NTE to slave socket at PC, plug in filter with RJ45 to PC and phone plug into phone socket to terminate in phone master , then return phone line to rest of house.
No need for complicated passwords, as no one outside my house could get access to my BB.
But with need for router to be central, I simply fit the filter between the NTE and my house master -PC side goes to Router, phone side goes to phone master. Bonus is that GS can get on line to play games etc on his Ipad
No need for a filter at phones as I've used an old transmission filter principle.

Thanks ,Paul- fewer folks using it was one thought, but I was testing the waters on ideas on thoughts of range ,and whether the ratio of frequency to bandwidth might increase speed and less error production. And also the chances of my router not moving channel when a conflict occurred ,as I've just had

Last edited by Oldcodger; 15th Oct 2017 at 10:36 pm.
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Old 16th Oct 2017, 12:01 am   #9
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Default Re: Router WI FI

I have just checked my tablet and it’s using 5Ghz, the access point is situated in the room below about 20 feet away, it’s a standard semi, wooden floors. The connection is very stable, it’s difficult to test speed as I am ADSL with only 10 Mbs download.

If you have 2.4Ghz congestion it would be worth a try otherwise I would not bother.
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Old 16th Oct 2017, 9:15 pm   #10
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Default Re: Router WI FI

There's someone in Leuven (Belgium) who has issued a recent warning regarding significant vulnerabilities in the WiFi Protected Access encryption system (albeit the evidence is given in a form that could arguably be described as masquerading as a formal dissertation, when clearly it is nothing of the sort).

Nevertheless, it's prompted me to reconsider how I distribute broadband and local area network connectivity around my house. I'll have a look for the link and post it later if anyone's interested.

Update: here's the link -

https://m.theregister.co.uk/2017/10/...e_krackattack/

Best wishes

Guy
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Last edited by Nymrod121; 16th Oct 2017 at 9:19 pm. Reason: add El Reg link
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Old 16th Oct 2017, 9:22 pm   #11
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Default Re: Router WI FI

5GHz has been a life saver for us. There is local overcrowding on 2.4GHz so the error rate is huge. Nice draytek 2860 went in and clients checked for compatibility and problem gone!
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Old 16th Oct 2017, 9:39 pm   #12
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Default Re: Router WI FI

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nymrod121 View Post
There's someone in Leuven (Belgium) who has issued a recent warning regarding significant vulnerabilities in the WiFi Protected Access encryption system (albeit the evidence is given in a form that could arguably be described as masquerading as a formal dissertation, when clearly it is nothing of the sort).

Nevertheless, it's prompted me to reconsider how I distribute broadband and local area network connectivity around my house. I'll have a look for the link and post it later if anyone's interested.
It's very difficult to weaponise this exploit and it's not something your next door neighbour would do just to steal a bit of bandwidth. Most internet traffic is now encrypted anyway and doesn't rely on wifi hardware encryption. It's more of an issue for large organisations and government bodies.

It's possible to become completely paranoid about domestic wifi. Remember that any potential attacker needs to be within range of your access point before they can even consider an attack. What would be the attacker's motivation? If they just wanted anonymous net access they could park outside the nearest pub or library with free wifi instead of your house. It's possible they could steal some of your passwords, but what are they going to do with them?
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Old 16th Oct 2017, 11:15 pm   #13
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Default Re: Router WI FI

I think patches will be along for clients, i.e. computers, phones etc. Patches for Wi-Fi access points are probably more of a problem. According to the paper, mitigation for the Access point can be had by not using it in client mode, i.e. as a repeater and disabling 802.11r protocol used in roaming networks.
https://www.krackattacks.com

I have checked my own access point and neither of those protocols were enabled.

Just update your software when it’s available.
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Old 17th Oct 2017, 12:04 am   #14
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Default Re: Router WI FI

It's relatively trivial. Spent an hour in a meeting about it this morning and the result was "meh". We don't assume that any of our wireless networks are anything but public.
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Old 17th Oct 2017, 9:50 am   #15
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Default Re: Router WI FI

It potentially allows an attacker to read the data stream as if it were unencrypted, but even this is very tricky to do. There is a theoretical possibility of injecting malware into the data stream, but this is extremely difficult James Bond stuff. It doesn't reveal the WPA passphrase or allow the attacker to join the network.

Not something for the typical domestic user to worry about.
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Old 17th Oct 2017, 10:32 am   #16
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Default Re: Router WI FI

Exactly. Also if everything is TLS and PFS is enabled this reduces the viability of the attack to state level attack capability (if they even have that). Everything should be over TLS these days anyway.
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Old 17th Oct 2017, 11:55 am   #17
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Default Re: Router WI FI

For any insonmiacs out there: https://www.krackattacks.com/
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Old 17th Oct 2017, 11:54 pm   #18
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Default Re: Router WI FI

My Linux User Group demonstrated a variant of this attack about three years ago. It's actually quite funny to see the Belgians "discover" this (pretty obvious) flaw.

The way we did it was to flood the router with bursts of RF at fairly high power - certainly enough that we'd be "stronger into the box" than the legitimate client. This would look like severe interference to the router, which would temporarily drop communication with its wireless client(s).

When the "interference" stopped, the router would then attempt to re-establish connection with the client by going through the TKIP password handshake process. In this case, we'd supplant the router's data bursts with ours, which set the client encryption key to all zeros (or ones - it didn't matter). The PSK was thereby revealed as it was just a question of subtracting the known encryption key (0) from the handshake data burst - which revealed the network key.

This is nothing really new - Police and other security services in several countries have been routinely monitoring private networks using this method since 2015! We had reason to believe that this attack had been used for a year or two before we found this approach.

The other - more effective - attack that's frequently employed against criminals (and terrorists) is to turn on the "default" SSID at the router (the one that appears as "BT Fon" or "VM service"). All traffic passing through the router can be monitored through this additional SSID if the router has a Huawei or Realtek chipset. These vulnerabilities were rumoured to have been included at the request of the Chinese Government, and other Security Services had discovered their existence.

Just assume that your router is compromised, and don't pass any data that you wouldn't want made public! This is why the "rolling keys" used by the Banks are such a good idea!
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Old 18th Oct 2017, 10:38 am   #19
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Default Re: Router WI FI

Quote:
Originally Posted by mictester View Post
All traffic passing through the router can be monitored through this additional SSID if the router has a Huawei or Realtek chipset.
Does that include "wired" traffic?
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Old 18th Oct 2017, 4:09 pm   #20
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Default Re: Router WI FI

Quote:
Does that include "wired" traffic?
More than likely, if you only used the wired connexion would you reset the wireless options? And the code is closed source, no way of knowing what it is doing, could be sending everything back to base for all I know.
 
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