Project Debut 3 replacement cart question

[Martin Bush]

Some time ago I started a thread which resulted in me getting help repairing the tone arm wire and replacing the cartridge on a Project Debut 3 I was kindly given.

Just now I had some records on and the sound was fluctuating seemingly in synch with the platter rotation. Having checked cables, platter etc I came to the conclusion that the stylus has had it.

I believe its previous owner dropped something on the tone arm thus breaking wires, the cart mount and the stylus housing. The stylus housing seems to be very close indeed to the record and I wonder if it is catching or if the stylus cantilever is making contact with the inside?

If people agree with me then I think it may be best to replace the cart and stylus as it seems to be as cost effective as buying a new stylus. While I know how to mount and align I'm no expert on what is and isn't compatible.

So, what would be a cost effective replacement? I have very limited funds and as my hifi isn't top end all I want is something to tide me over and not damage my LPs.

[bikerhifinut]

Hi Martin,
depends on what sort of reproduction quality you are after.
The OEM Ortofon OM5E is a very good bit of kit and it may be best to just get a genuine Ortofon Stylus or an upgrade on it.
So if you're determined to get a new cartridge there's really only 1 contender in the affordable stakes.
I'm talking about the Audio Technica VM95 series, starting from a shade under £30 for the conical tipped VM95C up to around £170 for the Shibata tipped VM95SH. They all use the same generator and body the only difference as you go up the range is the stylus assembly.
I'm currently listening to a VM95SH in my Michell turntable/Rega RB600 arm and its a really really good cartridge that punches well beyond its weight.
I would guess the direct equivalent to your Ortofon will be the VM95E which is the replacement for the classic AT95E. The newer VM95 series have the advantage in that they have captive threaded mounting holes so its dead easy to mount in your headshell. I'd fit the VM95C as it will sound just fine and if you get the urge to go a bit better if you improve any other bits of your system, just get a better stylus for the VM95.

If you fancy an Ortofon, then the obvious choice would be the 2M Red again a doddle to fit with threaded inserts for the mounting screws and usually supplied with a usable balance to set tracking force.

The new Budget Goldrings are only Audio Technicas anyway and the real thing is cheaper for the same performance so I wouldnt bother with one unless it was dirt cheap.
Shop around, and you can find a bargain.

I wouldn't go any better than maybe a VM95EN nude elliptical or the 2M Blue Ortofon in that turntable, excellent though it is. How would I know? I spent a lot of time with my sisters project Debut3 when she was between homes and whilst fettling it up i tried a fair few cartridges in my collection, up to a way OTT Ortofon Quintet MC, the OEM was pretty darn good in my opinion

Andy

[paulsherwin]

It seems unlikely that the effects you describe would be caused by a damaged stylus, though I suppose it's possible.

One of the standard Audio Technica carts or their OEM clones would probably be your best bet unless you want to go seriously upmarket. I use a Rega Carbon (AT91 derived) and have been very happy with it.

[bikerhifinut]

I fitted a Rega carbon to my nephews Planar3 and as Paul says, its a nice cartridge.
Same price as the VM95C, and I'd get the VM95C for the reasons stated in my first post.
Ok well theres £2 difference between an OM5E stylus and the whole cartridge £43 and £45.
I saw that you can get an OM10 stylus for £50 in the same shop so if sticking with the ortofon I'd get that and have a little bit better performance.
Otherwise, you dont get much else until you hit the £100 or thereabouts mark.
So its £30 for the VM95C, or £43 for the VM95E.
And £45 for an OM5E or £50 for the stylus upgrade to a stylus10 (OM10).

link to a review of the VM95 https://hi-fiworld.co.uk/index.php/v...artridges.html

finally Paul is right to ask if it is the stylus causing the issue but you would be able to give us a bit more info and maybe a photo if possible?

Andy.

[bikerhifinut]

Originally Posted by Martin Bush

Just now I had some records on and the sound was fluctuating seemingly in synch with the platter rotation. Having checked cables, platter etc I came to the conclusion that the stylus has had it.

That sounds more like a speed stability issue.
By fluctuating do you mean the pitch of the notes alters in time to the rotation?
or something else.
It is possible if the stylus cantilever suspension has collapsed that if there is a warp on the record or a slight rise and fall of the platter it could be fouling the record surface and partially lifting the stylus from the groove which could cause a distortion and/or lowering of signal volume, if that is what you mean by fluctuation.
Get your eyes down to the level of the disc and look at the stylus as it traces the groove.
It doesn't harm to check the stylus force either, its very easy to knock the debut3 arm weight and cause it to move slightly.
You can check the speed issue by downloading a strobe chart to stick over the spindle and there are accurate enough free mobile phone apps to get a strobe to read it by.
Theres even cheap to buy apps for the more modern android/iphones that you can stick the phone on the platter and it will read a very accurate speed off.

Lets diagnose this properly before you buy a new transducer.

Andy

[Martin Bush]

It's hard to describe, but I'd say it sounded to me as though it was a variation in volume/ distortion rather than speed, although I have keen ears it could possibly be speed.

I first picked it up listening to an Ariel Pink LP today and it was quite noticeable on that due to his recording technique. It just sounded odd. I switched to a more conventional record and detected the same sort of effect.

The stylus does seem to go almost completely into the housing when the arm is lowered and the bottom edge of the housing seems to almost skim the surface of the disc. I have known for a while that the housing is cracked, but until today I'd not noticed the duff sound. I did my best to get down and look with a torch and also listened to the disc playing with the amp turned off - it didnt sound completely musical, but it's easy to imagine things once you've been listening to the same thing for a while.

I switched to other sources and the radio and CD sounded fine, so whatever the fault is must be related to the deck.

The cart was provided by a forum member and has performed fine, so in a way it would be a shame to remove it. However I've found theres various cart and stylus deals costing less than a new Ortofon stylus on it's own, hence me wondering about going that route.

I will do some checks when my head and ears are fresh and give it some thought. I have a strobe disc and hopefully a filament bulb somewhere.

[bikerhifinut]

Sounds to me as if the suspension on the stylus has collapsed and a picture might confirm it.
You'll get a distorted sound if the cantilever isnt sitting centrally in the coil field so this is looking like a new stylus and if the body of the cartridge is damaged then cut your losses.
I may be able to help with a replacement Martin, but I think £30 on a VM95C would be money very well spent.

Andy

[snowman_al]

Martin,
Sorry dumb question... has the tracking weight been set correctly? (Knocked or moved perhaps.)

[Martin Bush]

That is a possibility. As I have to lift the lid off to play records as the deck is on a shelf, so I could have knocked it.

That said, the stylus body is cracked so may well be time for a new one soon.

[Edward Huggins]

What do you mean by the "Stylus Body" - are you really talking about the Cartridge?

[Martin Bush]

I mean the part that slides into the cartridge - the black plastic bit. I may not be technically correct. Basically the black plastic part is cracked top and bottom where it slides onto the cart.

This suggested to me that its had a whack at some point before I owned it.

[Edward Huggins]

Sorry to be dim, but "slides into the cartridge"?
Do you mean the 1/2" mounting carrier?
A photo will help.

[paulsherwin]

Martin is referring to the stylus assembly.

[ajgriff]

I think Martin means the plastic moulding into which the stylus shank (cantilever) is embedded. If so the stylus is effectively knackered to coin a phrase.

Alan

* Crossed with Paul's post.

[bikerhifinut]

i know what Martin means Edward.
it's the stylus carrier. If you look at an OM series Cartridge and the push on stylus assembly it looks like a long plastic "box" that fits over a square section metal assembly on the cartridge body itself.
OK Martin, chuck it away if the stylus carrier is cracked or split it's useless and there is quite likely internal damage to the suspension too.
This simplifies matters.
Get a new stylus assembly, £43 for an OM5E or £50 for a better specced OM10. You may get better prices hunting around, but beware of sites in the EU now as you can get bitten by import duty, it used to be a happy hunting ground but not any more. My price quotes were from one of the UK's premier Vinyl specialists who I generally deal with as it was my local hi Fi dealer when I lived in North Yorkshire and they were great to deal with with no bulldroppings that you got from some dealers i know in the north.
And only buy genuine Ortofon.
Or £30 on an AT VM95C which will really surprise you with its bang for the buck, you cant do better for the money.
If £30 is a bit rich for you drop me a PM as I should have a lightly used AT95E in the toybox. But its successor the VM95 series is streets ahead not least in ease of use and mounting.

Andy.

[paulsherwin]

Does the VM95 series have the same body dimensions as the AT91 Andy, so that styluses are interchangeable? I know the AT95E is different.

[bikerhifinut]

Its a lot different Paul.
I did an experiment with my VM95 against an AT95 and discovered that the assemblies were interchangeable with the caveat that the VM95SH stylus assembly gave a noticeably lower output on the AT95 body so I wouldn't recommend anyone try to "upgrade" their AT95 in this way. It's not worth it anyway as the difference between a stylus assembly and the full cartridge is around a tenner.
And genuine AT95 styli are still available as spares. And there's basically not much wrong with the AT95E, especially for the money.
The At91/rega carbon have a different assembly and I am not 100% certain but I suspect they arent the twin "V" magnet assembly of the VM series and the rest of the higher specced AT range.
I really liked the Rega Carbon in the planar3 I got for my nephew, for the money it's good value and its failings are not serious in any way.
Have a look at the review on the hi fi world website, and filter the audio gobbledegook out, there's not much anyway and what is interesting is the measurement graphs at the end.
I really rate my VM95 and yes its not in the same league as my usual 2M Bronze Ortofon but there's a huge price difference and if I was impoverished, i would say to anyone, go for the VM95, it's unbeatable at twice the price.
Cartridges being one of the few items that only listening to can help you decide. The other being loudspeakers, the stuff in the middle is important but not to the same degree. In my useless opinion.

Andy.