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Old 1st Feb 2017, 11:33 pm   #41
russell_w_b
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Default Re: Medium wave dying?

Quote:
Originally Posted by crusher19860138 View Post
'...and when looking over into cars,i look at the radio display and have observed around 70% tuned to MW, 693/1053/990 showing on displays'.
Radio Five Live on 693 kHz can be received satisfactorily whilst driving in southern Sweden after dark; 909 kHz less so. The electricity transmission lines and adjacent electric railway muck things up occasionally, though.

The hire-car (BMW) had no LW so I can't comment on 198 kHz.

It was nice to hear news from home (yes, I know it's available on t'Internet...) amidst the myriad channels of Swedish.
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Old 2nd Feb 2017, 2:31 pm   #42
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Default Re: Medium wave dying?

Perhaps the Dutch have a useful idea by the allowing of low-power private stations to use the now redundant frequencies on medium wave in that country. I understand that at the moment it is on an experimental basis, and the decision on the future of this arrangement will be made by the Dutch government later this year.
Frequency and power details here - but in Dutch. However one can grasp the idea from the table shown.
http://radio-tv-nederland.nl/am/am.html Cheers, Tony
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Old 2nd Feb 2017, 2:58 pm   #43
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Default Re: Medium wave dying?

For me, Three-Seven's post #30 says it all & I am inclined to think about the things that he mentions in the same way.

But there is a problem looming on the horizon for all of us vintage radio enthusiasts, no? With the likely disappearance of MW (and probably LW) broadcasting, what will become of our traditional LW / MW vintage radios and our enthusiasm for them? Will there be any point in doing restorations if there is nothing to listen to? As far as this forum is concerned, despite its title, it deals with much more than 'vintage radio' as such (thank goodness), so perhaps the 'vintage radio' part of it might just simply vanish.
Only time will tell - but I do feel that the writing is on the wall.

Al.
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Old 2nd Feb 2017, 4:16 pm   #44
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Default Re: Medium wave dying?

For me, I much prefer to listen to m.w transmissions, especially when I want to tune in to Radio Seagull and its Dutch daytime service. My nephew was given a D.A.B radio a while back as a present, it developed a fault and it sounded absolutely dreadful. He got sick of it and disposed of it. It was beyond economical repair.
I like digital w.r.g to computers and C.D and photography, but not radios.
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Old 2nd Feb 2017, 4:20 pm   #45
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Default Re: Medium wave dying?

I strongly suspect that when the last UK MF stations close (or maybe even before) there will be some sort of low-power 'experimental' type licence available. Maybe there will be remain a few niche broadcasters with more powerful transmitters, but with a relatively small audience.

No doubt there will be a maximum of 100 mW or something quite small since there won't be the manpower to make sure the stations don't widely broadcast inappropriate political, religious, etc. content. Regulation may be along the lines of say Youtube, where inappropriate content is flagged by the public, but officially dealt with fairly swiftly.

I can't see MF band being put to any other use any time soon, but you never know.

Sound broadcasting's audience has been shrinking for years. When was the last time you saw a teenager listening to the radio? Most people under 25 select exactly the music they want when and where they want it. Those bothered with news just glance at internet news websites, again often selecting those sites with exactly the type of news they want. If they have a particular hobby or interest there are literally countless free podcasts to download to listen to on the bus, driving to work, in bed, etc.

As someone from a broadcasting background, I think this all is rather sad, but inevitable. Technology changes, tastes change and people have different priorities.

Colleagues and I discussed these developments about a decade ago. The writing was on the wall when DAB was being pushed and pushed at an unwilling audience and it not being taken up abroad. Then there was Digital Radio Mondial (DRM) that came 20 years too late. That digital system has almost vanished now without trace.

In about 2006 we could see the future of broadcasting changing radically. Different bands for TV and radio will eventually disappear. 'Live' programming would diminish significantly - maybe just news, sport, national events, and the kind of 'engineered' TV shows people still (apparently) enjoy watching together like Big Brother, X-Factor, Celebrity Dancing, etc.

Live radio and TV, plus any films, past shows, the lot from across the world, all available via some 5G, 6G, 7G (or what ever) system that blankets the country, all probably at a nominal cost. (Not sure how such a system would cope with say 30m people all watching some huge national event, like the funeral of Princess Di, but anyway...)

The general market - such as it is - for our beautifully restored vintage sets will probably fall even further. Many of us will be happy to use them with various pantry transmitters, but Mr and Mrs Ordinary are unlikely to want to do that.
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Old 3rd Feb 2017, 4:57 am   #46
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Default Re: Medium wave dying?

Ian has hit the nail on the head, sadly.
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Old 3rd Feb 2017, 9:25 am   #47
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Default Re: Medium wave dying?

I think we are approaching a tipping point for MF (and HF) broadcast. At some point it will cease to be worth the cost of maintaining the tall masts that are needed for adequate service area. Transmitters and buildings cost enough to maintain, but the masts are much more serious propositions, becoming actively dangerous without regular maintenance.

The MF broadcast stations don't share their masts with VHF/UHF services because of the trouble of needing MF breaks in their feeders, so there won't be cellphone ot tetra users to carry the maintenance costs.

There will be a switch-off, but when it comes it will be rapid.

In the USA there are lots of small local medium wave broadcasters, and there are very low power local info stations. You tune your car radio to a frequency on a roadside sign and drive along, passing from the area of one transmitter describing scenery, history etc into that of the next down the road. But we won't change to this sort of thing as medium wave coverage disappears from car radios.

The only place where my view diverges from Ian's is that 100mW might be a bit too low. Range is also now reduced by the level of QRM.

David
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Old 3rd Feb 2017, 9:39 am   #48
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Default Re: Medium wave dying?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Radio Wrangler View Post
The MF broadcast stations don't share their masts with VHF/UHF services because of the trouble of needing MF breaks in their feeders
Hi David,
Is that breaks in the feeder or breaks in the guy wires? I understand the need in the guy wires but not the feeders.

Frank
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Old 3rd Feb 2017, 10:28 am   #49
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Default Re: Medium wave dying?

I miss the strong AM signals from the local Mangotsfield transmitter especially Radio Bristol on 1548Khz. But I still get very good reception from the Washford transmitter which is the home of Radio Wales on 882Khz, Absolute on 1215Khz and Talk Sport on 1089Khz, the Clevedon transmitter for BBC R5L on 909 and Droitwich for BBC R4 198Khz and BBC R5L on 693Khz. All these signals are strong and easily punch through the high levels of RFI.
I feel that unless we can get to grips with the ever increasing levels of RFI then the future for Long and Medium wave AM radio is bleak.
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Old 3rd Feb 2017, 10:32 am   #50
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Default Re: Medium wave dying?

The MF signal can't tell the difference between a length of guy wire and a length of a feeder for another user. They just look like long conductors.

It all depends whether the masts are hot or grounded.

If you look at the photos in 'the transmission gallery' for MF stations, you'll find them unusually free of the clutter which has climbed up most VHF/UHF site towers. you sometimes see that a site has a separate small mast for a microwave link for the signals to be broadcast (or as the back-up).

Broadcast planning was done around government insistence of always having a reliable channel to talk to the masses and tell them when to take shelter, to apply treacle and brown paper to windows and other such cold-war countermeasures. I wonder what their emergency planners see as the future alternative? The internet seems to be the first thing to go down in power cuts.

David
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Old 3rd Feb 2017, 10:40 am   #51
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Default Re: Medium wave dying?

One other thought is that information carrying capacity is a linear function of frequency, while we've become too used to thinking on logarithmic scales. There is as much information carrying capacity between 2000 and 2030MHz as there is in the whole of VLF, LF, MF, HF bands.

The propagation characteristics are different, though. But at least SMPS and lightbulbs haven't got fast enough to spread their QRM up there.

In the far future I see UHF and upward being utterly dominated by portable gadgets because of the need for small antennae. I see LF MF and most of HF being lost to man made noise. I wonder if we'll be lucky enough to have a gap between the two in which to play radio? I suspect any clear spot will be where ionospheric propagation happens in sunspot maxima years. I'm now wondering why I bought that nice HF rig....

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Old 3rd Feb 2017, 12:30 pm   #52
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Default Re: Medium wave dying?

Thanks for the explanation David, I had not thought about other transmissions on the same or nearby sites.
Frank
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Old 3rd Feb 2017, 7:24 pm   #53
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Default Re: Medium wave dying?

I don't think that radio listening will go away. There is a desire for company whether in the car or home alone that radio can provide plus news and features that take effort to find elsewhere. Traditional radio is a simple easy available method of delivery. If YouTube is going to kill radio and everyone is going to select their own playlist then why didn't MP3 players, CDs, cassettes and vinyl records do this beforehand?

TV was going to kill radio but it hasn't. TV was also going to kill the cinema and there are more cinema screens in the local area than there have ever been. Local radio was going to be the death-knell for local newspapers. Whilst in my area the local morning paper has gone to a weekly, the two evening titles survive and we get two free papers a week. Circulations are bound to be less as are viewing figures for the traditional 'old' TV channels when there are dozens of TV stations on freeview and even more on satellite. With all this competition plus the internet, radio audiences are inevitably lower. The weakest delivery mediums will go to the wall first and thus local commercials on MW are nearing extinction.

I don't know any teenagers so I don't know too much of their habits other than the complaints of friends whose off-springs were teenagers not so very long ago that they were for ever retuning the car radio to some pop station or Radio One on the school run. I do work in places where there are young adults and they do like the radio. In fact it can be quite annoying when you've got a job on which you need to concentrate. I've often taken in my own system and earphones just to shut out the racket!

There have always been youth music subcultures that have operated well outside of the mainstream. When I was at senior school there was a period after the Marine Offences Act when the only two pop stations were Radio One and Luxembourg but most of the stuff that was played in the sixth form common room you never heard on either of those unless, perhaps, it cropped up on the John Peel show. One of the most enduring music subcultures is northern soul (getting on for 50 years and counting) and the majority of records played at a typical 'nighter have never been played on the radio - at least until recent times when CD pressings have made specialist shows possible. But in between all that radio still played its part and there was always discussion on the school bus of what had been on Luxembourg the previous evening. (Some of us got as exotic as AFN but that was the province of nerds with wires down the garden )

In my locality Radio 4, Radio 5 and Absolute are easy listens anywhere in the house but Droitwich is only a few miles down the road. There is Smooth on the old BRMB and Beacon frequencies and the Asian Network on the old Radio WM frequency. Radio Wales 882, Sunshine 855 (Ludlow), BBC Hereford & Worcester 738 and RTE 252 are easy listens until my neighbours turn on their square wave generator mid afternoon which wipes those out until midnight. Given that most of those stations are available on FM or DAB the average listener outside of strong signal areas will soon give up on AM unless they are in difficult terrain where FM and DAB do not penetrate.

SMPS noise, etc., and poorly optimised AM receivers will kill medium wave with the prohibitive cost of maintenance of big transmitters and masts helping it along.

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Old 3rd Feb 2017, 7:57 pm   #54
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I like letting the broadcaster give me what they want (well Radios 4, 4 extra and the World Service) I get to listen to some programmes I would have never selected on a 'feed' basis.
 
Old 3rd Feb 2017, 9:50 pm   #55
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Default Re: Medium wave dying?

If youtube did radio, a nice interesting programme would just get going when a loud shouty advert would come on on top of the still running programme. Some of the time you could go to the radio and push a button to stop the advert, other times the button wouldn't work.

Grrr!

That would completely kill off radio.

David
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Old 3rd Feb 2017, 10:03 pm   #56
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Default Re: Medium wave dying?

If you enjoy the sound of AM radio there is avery authentic simulator available as a plug in to the Reaper audio editor. It's not just an audio filter, it actually synthesises fading, audio distortion during fades, adjacent channel splatter and all parameters are variable. You could, with a little patience simulate radio Monte Carlo splattering Luxembourg during deep faded complete with authentic music and audio processing! See here http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=86181
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Old 3rd Feb 2017, 10:40 pm   #57
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Default Re: Medium wave dying?

Notwithstanding the difficulties associated with using AM MF masts and towers for additional radiation purposes, apparently that practice is well established in the USA. It appears to date from the early days of FM broadcasting, when in some cases FM radiators were added to AM masts/towers. That combination was covered at least as early as the FCC’s “FM Standards of Good Engineering Practice” issued 1945 September 20. (1)

Noll (2), in 1983, noted “In many AM/FM stations, the tower serves as both the vertical radiator for am operation and the support for the radiating elements of the fm antenna system”. A brief description of the techniques then (1974) in use to prevent non-grounded AM antenna detuning from the VHF transmissions lines was provided by Ennes (3). Griffith (4), in 1998, said “Many AM stations gain additional revenue by leasing space on their towers to others needing antenna sites such as mobile telephone and paging companies”. An accompanying picture had the caption: “This AM tower also supports several commercial two-way and amateur repeater antennas.”

Up to date, this site: https://www.lbagroup.com/services/am...y-on-the-table indicates that conversion of non-grounded AM masts/towers to the folded monopole form might now be the preferred way to accommodate additional VHF-UHF services.

Cheers,

(1) Available in “FM and Television” journal for 1945 October, in turn available at: http://www.americanradiohistory.com/...-1945-10.o.pdf. See page 28ff.
(2) Edward M. Noll; Broadcast Radio and Television Handbook, Sixth Edition”; Sams; 1983; ISBN 0-672-29999-1. See page 226.
(3) Harold E. Ennes; AM-FM Broadcasting – Equipment, Operation and Maintenance” Sams; 1974; ISBN 0-672-21012-6. Available at: http://www.americanradiohistory.com/...old-Ennes.pdf; see page 406ff.
(4) Patrick M. Griffith; AM Broadcast Station Antenna Systems – A Basic Guide”; Morris Publishing; 1998; ISBN 0-7392-0085-2.
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Old 7th Feb 2017, 10:08 pm   #58
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Default Re: Medium wave dying?

I'm surely in the minority here, but I won't miss broadcasting of anything much, in the everyday sense, though I do feel a conservative wistfulness for the passing of it; sort of in the same way as I am an atheist, but also like the presence of churches (there's a lovely Norman one about a hundred yards away as I type this, and the thought of it ever ceasing to be a place of Christian worship makes me sad).

Ever since childhood I've considered broadcast frustrating. In terms of radio, it's listening to what somebody else chooses to play, at times of their choosing. The only consistent radio listening in my life was a period in my teens when I would listen to the John Peel show (and if memory serves that was alternated with the Friday Rock Show).

I like to listen to podcasts on YouTube, a wealth of material that broadcasters never could or would have provided, on subjects so gloriously specific. In terms of video, I can for instance watch Mr Carlson servicing electronics both ancient and more modern. You just never got, nor never would get, that on the telly. The tyranny of a broadcast schedule made it impossible.

So plus ca change and all that. And yet, it is sad too.
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Old 7th Feb 2017, 10:36 pm   #59
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Default Re: Medium wave dying?

Exactly! I suspect there are very many people who simply have no idea of the depth and breadth of what is available on the internet - free. It's not as if it's hard to find exactly what one wants to listen to or watch.

And when it come to listening to your choice of programme, for £10 you can buy an MP3 player that will hold more than enough podcasts for you to listen to in the car, out walking the dog or through your pantry transmitter, whenever you want.

Unfortunately people who listen to the radio are literally dying off. Nearly every station manager will tell you that. Sad but true.
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Old 8th Feb 2017, 6:39 am   #60
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Default Re: Medium wave dying?

In New Zealand, MW AM is still used a lot, but mostly by just a handful of networks - mostly Rhema, Star, RNZ National, RNZ AM Network, Radio Sport, Newstalk ZB and Bsport. After dark it's alive with those networks and various ABC and commercial stations from Australia - about the only time you'll hear any overseas stations here!

Locally we've got:
558 Radio Sport (Dacre, first on air 1982ish)
720 RNZ National (Dacre, first on air 1936ish)
864 Newstalk ZB (Dacre, first on air 1956)
1026 Star (Tussock Creek, first on air 1997)
1224 BSport (Kennington, first on air 1982)
1314 AM Network (Dacre, first on air around 2010)
1404 Rhema (Tussock Creek, first on air 1987)

So a couple of relatively new stations. Unfortunately the RSM website license search won't let you link to search results in any useful way, but if you search for say 0.520 to 1.7 MHz you'll get page after page of AM licenses, and almost all will be used (any unused ones would have been surrendered with the 2010 relicensing, and any auctioned since then have got a two year "use it or lose it" provision).
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