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Old 21st Feb 2023, 11:16 am   #1
3CX15000A7
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Default Converting an FL1.6 to 50Hz?

I have a fl1.0 25" set in my retro setup and that is by far the best CRT I ever found. I tried many sets but no one has such a clean sharp RGB section, excellent grayscale/saturation and good HV regulation.

Now I like to have a 28" version, but the 50HZ FL series are very rare. The 100hz fl1.6 is pretty common to find. But I don't like 100Hz

Was thinking, can I convert a fl1.6 to 50HZ? The schematics are very simular.

The driver stage (tda2579), bypassig the digibox, changing components in the vertical all seems pretty straightforward. I even have a good 28" blackline tube plus matching yoke if needed, coming out of a GR2.2.

But the big question is, will the line stage work at 15625hz? The FL1.6 has different output transistor(s), transformer, coils etc . . . A transformer of a FL1.0 is still available but linearity coals/driver T etc not . .

Of course to make it more complicated, I like to keep the 25" fl1.0 intact .
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Old 21st Feb 2023, 11:39 am   #2
Maarten
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Default Re: Converting a fl1.6 to 50hz?

Probably not feasible. Both the line output stage and the deflection yoke are optimised for the higher frequency. The tube and yoke could probably be taken from the GR2.2 set (which itself didn't give a bad picture either), but you would still need much of the line output stage. Taking the large signal panel (or while you're at it, just take everything) from a 50Hz set seems the best option.

While 25" was the most sold size for any field frequency, at least in The Netherlands, I don't think 28" 50Hz FL sets were much rarer than other 28" sets.
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Old 22nd Feb 2023, 11:55 am   #3
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Default Re: Converting a fl1.6 to 50hz?

Ouch I was already afraid of. Probably have to wait some more.

I know most like the GR2 series.

I don't like the RGB amplifiers used in the french Philips sets. They all seem to have some typical "picture" In audio space they will call it "colored" sound.

Their is always some smearing/ringing, it can be somewhat improved by changing coupling caps, but never get them fully clean. Also the GR2.2 it's pretty dull (RGB in) overall due despite the good tube, grayscale/saturation wise. This is typical for this chassis, not other french sets.

The fl1 but also the italian designs (anubis, g90) have much better picture in my opinion. The anubis B en fl1.0 have the cleanest picture ever seen on consumer CRT's.
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Old 14th Mar 2023, 9:41 am   #4
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Default Re: Converting a fl1.6 to 50hz?

I am lucky, I probably can get a 28CL6976 with a FL1.8AD 50Hz chassis complete with stand later on the week!

Now it seems the FL1.8 is rare but very like the FL1.0 and the later FL1.0
Do some now the differences between them? I cannot find a schematic
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Old 14th Mar 2023, 2:52 pm   #5
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Default Re: Converting a fl1.6 to 50hz?

There's a service bulletin that some FL1.8 and 1.9 chassis are actually FL1.0 AD chassis that are mislabeled. This is from the top of my head. Also I don't know if this pertains to all FL1.8 and 1.9 chassis. The way I remember that I understood it, is that those may possibly not exist and they're all FL1.0 AD chassis, which is a late evolution of the FL1.0 chassis and probably looks very much like the FL1.10 chassis.
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Old 14th Mar 2023, 8:40 pm   #6
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Default Re: Converting a fl1.6 to 50hz?

The production code is "AG219226," from mid 1992. Two different (.8/.9) mislabels? Interesting to see what the PCB will say.

Pretty excited, it also have the comb filter module, there weren't many 50Hz FL1's that actually got this comb filter. The composite input of the 25PV7505 I have without comb filter is already very good, the CTI doesn't bleed as with the GR2 series. As told it was not used much, only the tuner was replaced in all those years, so good hope the A66EAK222X13 tube is also still strong.
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Old 14th Mar 2023, 9:02 pm   #7
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Default Re: Converting a fl1.6 to 50hz?

I would consider running the set on 60 cycles as intended. This is easier than it sounds. Simply purchase a 60 cycle power inverter as would be used for off grid AC power in America.
Obtain the 12/14 volt or 24/28 volt DC input from an existing or new power supply unit.
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Old 14th Mar 2023, 9:21 pm   #8
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Default Re: Converting a fl1.6 to 50hz?

Quote:
Originally Posted by broadgage View Post
I would consider running the set on 60 cycles as intended. This is easier than it sounds. Simply purchase a 60 cycle power inverter as would be used for off grid AC power in America.
Obtain the 12/14 volt or 24/28 volt DC input from an existing or new power supply unit.
I think you are confused with mains frequency vs refresh rate. The FL1.6 written in the start post is a chassis working on 50Hz mains, but the refresh rate of the picture is 100Hz.
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Old 15th Mar 2023, 5:12 am   #9
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Default Re: Converting a fl1.6 to 50hz?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3CX15000A7 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by broadgage View Post
I would consider running the set on 60 cycles as intended. This is easier than it sounds. Simply purchase a 60 cycle power inverter as would be used for off grid AC power in America.
Obtain the 12/14 volt or 24/28 volt DC input from an existing or new power supply unit.
I think you are confused with mains frequency vs refresh rate. The FL1.6 written in the start post is a chassis working on 50Hz mains, but the refresh rate of the picture is 100Hz.
Yes, I was.
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Old 19th Mar 2023, 9:35 pm   #10
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Default Re: Converting an FL1.6 to 50Hz?

I got the the FL1.8!

I never got a tv that was that dirty inside! I did not find a remark yet, but it's pretty much the same as the fl1.0AD indeed.

After a lot of cleaning it fired up fine, but the tube is pretty bad. Poor focus, convergence and pretty dark compared to the 25"

I gave the müter bmr95 a shot on the green and blue cathodes. After it took around 15 minutes, slowly gaining emission. After all guns are around the 1mA. Tracking measured still poor.

In real life the picture isn't too bad. It's free from electronic faults, and after regeneration focus and convergence are ok, color/grayscale tracking is clearly worse, but it seem to improve somewhat after playing some hours.

Finally, the bass speaker needs a refoam too . .

Last edited by 3CX15000A7; 19th Mar 2023 at 9:57 pm.
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Old 19th Mar 2023, 9:50 pm   #11
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Default Re: Converting an FL1.6 to 50Hz?

Some photos:
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Old 20th Mar 2023, 11:16 pm   #12
Maarten
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Default Re: Converting an FL1.6 to 50Hz?

If the tube indeed has low hours on it, the bad emission was probably caused by a long period of inactivity. Leaving the set on for some time, or even running the CRT heater on a slightly higher voltage for some time, should restore it nicely.
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Old 21st Mar 2023, 9:32 am   #13
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Default Re: Converting an FL1.6 to 50Hz?

I don't think the tube was low hours after all. The guy I bought it from used it a few hours a day with contrast on maximum. Afterall, a few hours a day for 30 years is still 20-30k hours.

The tube measured very good on red (>1.1mA), but avarage (0.8mA/0.9mA) on blue and green with a large tracking difference between red and the two weaker colors.

After a regeneration, the emmision of blue and green are better, but still lazy in the tracking test.

The Chassis does compensate for that with the Cut-off control and with the series coil of the heater bypassed, the picture is actually pretty nice after a long warmup. When upping the VG2 I got a confirmation of my measurements, no bright white screen but only red with flyback lines, telling me blue and green are weak.

But the good news is I have a very good tube(A66EAK252X11 out of my GR2.2). This one should be compatible with the A66EAK222X13 used in this set (X13, vs X11 is only a different connector according to the service information, 252 is also fitted in the FL without component changes). Will do a swap soon.

Btw, the comb filter works pretty well. Using the PM5644 generator, the interference is much improved, it's CVBS input is getting closely to RGB quality what is very big compliment, not seen many CRT's did that.

Interesting is that this comb filter is fully analogue compared to the comb filter in the FL1.10 (that was the same used in the GR series, not having seen it in real life). By re calibrating it I can probably get it even better, as these analogue filters tended to drift somewhat over time.
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Old 29th Mar 2023, 4:36 pm   #14
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Default Re: Converting an FL1.6 to 50Hz?

I did the tube swap on the 28CL6976 !

The result is very good, the picture is much better, in line with my 25" FL1.0 in a first comparison. It's pretty crazy how vivid and bright these tubes go in a FL1.0. With the contrast on half it is already brighter than this tube did with max contrast in the GR2.2. Probably the reason why the GR2 sets are still so common . . (and the original in the FL1 was worn)

Does anyone know the difference between the A66EAK222/EAK252/EAK552 ? They are all blackline S.

I too replaced C2519 as there was severe ringing on a cross hatch pattern. It's still there a little bit with high contrast but much improved (not visable in normal content). Maybe a low ESR capacitor will work better?

Are their any other capacitors (blue disk types?) that are worth replacing in these sets? Searching on FL1.0/FL1.10 gives much less results as searching on GR2.x, seems the caps lasted better in these.
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Old 2nd Apr 2023, 11:59 am   #15
Maarten
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Default Re: Converting an FL1.6 to 50Hz?

Nice picture! The blue disc across the line output transistor(s) always fried itself in the 100Hz version. In the 50Hz version it probaby sees a slightly lower load. I always used to fit an axial MKP type. The official solution was to use a 3kV ceramic instead of a 2kV.

I don't know about the difference between the tubes. I probably have a paper databook, but that's stowed away at the moment.
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Old 16th Apr 2023, 11:53 am   #16
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Default Re: Converting an FL1.6 to 50Hz?

Speaking about the disc capacitors, I blew up the set

https://vimeo.com/manage/videos/818072641

I dismantled the set for further cleaning and after putting everything back in place the HV arced directly at power on. It arced a hole through the EHT cable at the mounting hole where the cable clicks in the transformer and arced to the core (yes I forget to put the rubber sleeve back in place so it had a free path to the core too)

As it seems not an internal flyback arc, I suspect the HV went up much to high. I checked the B+ (with a lightbulb as load) and that one is OK. Horizontal drive is OK too. I removed the 330pf disc capacitor over the LOT and measured it with an ESR meter. The capacitance was perfect, but the ESR was around 50-60Kohm, depending on the test frequency.

Strange thing is, I picked another, but 470pf, disc capacitor as reference for the ESR. It measured around 200-300 ohm. After I remeasured the 330pf capacitor, and then it measured nearly the same ESR. I am pretty sure I did measured it correctly multiple times the first time . . .

Question is did this happen because of a faulty disc cap and what to do next? For sure replacing the capacitor and checking everything around the circuit. But replace the flyback transformer too? Donberg has a HR Diemen, but these are expensive. But I doubt if the original transformer is still reliable having the risk it arcs internally later on. .

Last edited by 3CX15000A7; 16th Apr 2023 at 11:58 am.
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Old 27th Apr 2023, 9:26 am   #17
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Default Re: Converting an FL1.6 to 50Hz?

I have the set back working, but I am afraid I need some help as there is still a difficult regulation problem . .

-I replaced the EHT lead
-I replaced C2504
-I replaced C2523

I tried to turn on, but the LOPT was visually arcing inside, around the Focus/G2 pots. Set did go in protection so

-I replaced the flyback transformer for a HR6581.

The set did turn on and the picture was a little smaller and darker. I adjusted the G2 and focus. When adjusting the G2 the picture size, brightness (the auto cut-off do interact a bit, but much less than normal) and focus all seems to change very much. Focus and G2 have much more interaction that normal.

I adjusted it as good as possible (visually). Remains is that the picture size (vertical + horizontal) changes much going from dark to bright (around 1 square of a test card). On bright scenes the focus is completely off. I can adjust it, but then it gets worse on dark scenes.

I checked TP55 with a scope (EHT-info), it's much weaker (max 5v pk-pk, also not getting to the 12v offset) than it should. +28V is OK and stable (so is the +140). I replaced C2528 and D6714, but those measered OK and did not solve the problem.

Also retried the old EHT lead (with the damaged part cut away and stripped again), but it has the same result.

Picture tube doesn't has a short according the BMR95.

Grounding strap is connected to the neck-board (and tube). I also measured it back to the main PCB

Could it be the HR6581 that isn't (fully) compatible? I had a difficult time to get it in there. It had one screw less, was too thick to get over the jumpers on the topside of the pcb (cutted away some plastic pins on the HR to fit it) and one screw was a little off (around 1.5mm too far apart compared to the original).

Last edited by 3CX15000A7; 27th Apr 2023 at 9:34 am.
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Old 27th Apr 2023, 12:30 pm   #18
Maarten
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Default Re: Converting an FL1.6 to 50Hz?

Sorry for not responding sooner, the case wasn't immediately clear to me so I wanted to have a better look at it and didn't get around to it.

To detemermine with reasonable accuracy whether an HR transformer is a good equivalent, you have to go by the numbers on the old transformer. What did the label say?
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Old 27th Apr 2023, 1:25 pm   #19
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Default Re: Converting an FL1.6 to 50Hz?

No problem at all !

The part number out of the service manual for the FL1.0 says:

4822 14010 408

The transformer has a sticker with: V9222-E E and a number I think 38143 but the last number is pretty vague

With the numbers on the original transformer I didn't found anything. The part number led me to a HR6581
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Old 27th Apr 2023, 2:43 pm   #20
Maarten
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Default Re: Converting an FL1.6 to 50Hz?

38143 (all 12NC tails starting with 3814) indeed crossreferences to HR6581.

The HR Diemen reference is usually right, even if the transformer is not a perfect physical fit.

I'd say there's probably something wrong around the transformer... At first the EHT may have been too high but it's now too low. Did you carefully check the value of the capacitors you replaced? The small blue ceramic and larger low value high voltage foil capacitor across the line output transistor are critical.
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