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Old 11th Nov 2013, 11:52 pm   #1
Geologytom
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Default Virgin Telephone line and a 746

Hi All,

Wonder if you could offer any suggestions to help me troubleshoot problems with a 746 I refurbed for a friend. She has told me she can't dial out, and often the phone will ring the Emergency Services (probably 112!) instead of dialling correctly.

I had rebuilt the dial, and it worked perfectly on my BT/now Sky line, but she reports that she has a Virgin line which I suspect to be the source of the problem? I've noted from many other posts on here that they are very picky on beats per second, does this sort of behaviour seem to match previous experiences?

And if so...any advice on the exact settings? I don't have any special equipment to measure the dial (other than a stop watch!) so any suggestions would be welcome.

Cheers,

Tom
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Old 12th Nov 2013, 12:29 am   #2
wd40addict
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Default Re: Virgin Telephone line and a 746

Hi, it doesn't help you hugely, but I can confirm my 746 works fine on Virgin so they can be made to work.

Regards,

Paul
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Old 12th Nov 2013, 9:48 am   #3
Dave Moll
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Default Re: Virgin Telephone line and a 746

It certainly sounds like a dial speed problem. I know that some exchange equipment can be more fussy than BT's about such things.

Do you have any other telephones that perform loop disconnect (pulsed) dialling? If so, do they work on your friend's line? If so, try comparing the speed of dialling.
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Old 12th Nov 2013, 11:25 am   #4
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Default Re: Virgin Telephone line and a 746

In lieu of a dial tester I have used an analogue multimeter on the low ohms range measuring resistance of the pulse springs. I got a number of known good dials and marked where the needle position was when I repeatedly dialled '0'. I then connected the dial to be calibrated and adjusted the governor until the needle sat on the mark. This worked quite well on all the dials I needed to adjust.

I am not familiar with UK Virgin landlines but I have found on some electronic PABX that the correct mark/space 66/33ms ratio was critical otherwise the the system got the the pulse count wrong. This should be a function of the cam on the dial but perhaps the teeth on the cam are worn. Another possibility is that there may be excessive capacitance on the line or a high resistance path between Line A and Line B. Either of these will distort the dial pulse as received at the SLIC. Try another known good phone anon the line and see if it can dial correctly.

Andrew
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Old 12th Nov 2013, 1:19 pm   #5
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Default Re: Virgin Telephone line and a 746

According to this it should be ten pulses a second.

From what I've heard with Virgin it depends whereabouts in the country you are, probably due to the age of the equipment. Dials work fine in Sheffield but I believe that in some areas pulse-dialing will not work at all.

- Joe
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Old 12th Nov 2013, 2:50 pm   #6
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Default Re: Virgin Telephone line and a 746

I have a friend in Staffordshire and pulse dialling on his Virgin line definitely does not work.
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Old 12th Nov 2013, 8:33 pm   #7
Geologytom
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Default Re: Virgin Telephone line and a 746

Thanks for the input all - any help is great.

I had a bad feeling about this when I tentatively checked her service provider...but oh well! I think the positive news is that Pulse Dialling must work on the line because it is doing random things, and some of you are suggesting it wouldn't do this if the exchange was not accepting it.

I think I will retrieve the phone (it's only 120 miles from me!) and play with the governor again with various kit. A dial tester would be nice but I imagine they are like hens teeth, and I only do a phone a year...

Cheers all.
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Old 12th Nov 2013, 10:03 pm   #8
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Default Re: Virgin Telephone line and a 746

Hi,
As Virgin have now swallowed up all of the smaller cable operators there are at least two types of telecoms "switch" (exchange) used in different areas, there may be more but I am unsure of this.

Some areas use system X (which is what a lot of BT lines use) whilst others use a Nortel DMS switch.
The Nortel DMS switch is notoriously fussy about correct dial speed on pulse dialing, it certainly is here on Teesside.

I think one of the reasons that the Nortel switch is fussy about pulse dial speed may be that it was initially intended to be used as a business switch where DTMF phones would have been supplied by the service provider so pulse dialing equipment would have not been an issue.

Regards

Andrew
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Old 12th Nov 2013, 10:29 pm   #9
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Default Re: Virgin Telephone line and a 746

Maybe a Rotatone would be the solution?

http://www.rotatone.co.uk/

Highly recommended.

Nick.
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Old 12th Nov 2013, 11:11 pm   #10
Dave Moll
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Default Re: Virgin Telephone line and a 746

Or, if you want to keep the 'phone itself in its original condition, another possibility is a dialgizmo.
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Old 13th Nov 2013, 12:02 am   #11
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Default Re: Virgin Telephone line and a 746

Quote:
Originally Posted by Geologytom View Post
often the phone will ring the Emergency Services (probably 112!) instead of dialling correctly.
You need to be quite sure before reconnecting it, the authorities do not share our interests. Maybe a PB tone 782 or 8782 would be a good compromise, or is it the rotary dial which is the attraction?
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Old 13th Nov 2013, 1:40 am   #12
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Default Re: Virgin Telephone line and a 746

It's important to realise that the Virgin Media cable network was built by lots of small cable companies, each using their own choice of technology for both the telephone and TV services. Over the years, these small companies merged or were taken over, finally becoming part of the Virgin Media group. As a result, different equipment exists in different areas of the Virgin network. This explains why rotary dial phones work in some areas but not others.

My own experience of a cable phone line (originally installed by ComTel , then taken over by NTL and rebranded as Virgin) is that it was fussy about the timing of the dial pulses. A rotary dial 700 series phone was unreliable on my cable phone line but worked fine on a BT line. A push-button pulse dialling phone worked on both lines. In the latter, the pulses were generated electronically and were more accurate.

I found a solution while looking for a pulse to tone converter. A search on this forum suggested that an old Mercury Smart Socket could be reprogrammed for use as a pulse to tone converter, but no instructions were given. I bought a Mercury SmartSocket Plus at a car boot sale but couldn't figure out how to reprogram it as a pulse to tone converter. It found a use though ... I'll explain.

The Smart Socket was designed to be plugged into a BT phone line. You then plugged a phone into the smart socket. As you dialled a number, the smart socket captured the digits, then calculated if the number was local or long-distance. If it was long distance, the unit would route the call via the Mercury network by dialling 131+your Mercury PIN+phone number in tone format. If the call was local, it picked up the BT line and re-dialled the the number that had been captured in the same format. If you dialled a local phone number using pulses, it re-dialled it as pulses, and if you dialled your local number using a tone dialling phone, it re-dialled it as tones. It didn't convert from pulse to tone at all!

I felt rather annoyed that I had wasted my money on the smart socket, even though it was only £2, it didn't do what I wanted. But wait a minute ... it converted the pulses from the unreliable 700 series dial phone into electronically generated pulses, which the Virgin phone line was happy with. Problem solved, at least for local calls. But it insisted on trying to route long distance calls via Mercury, which doesn't work on cable phone lines. Luckily I discovered that you can dial 121 before a long distance call which forces the smart socket to route the call via 'BT', i.e. to re-dial the number without the Mercury access code. Then it works ... as a pulse to pulse converter. Not exactly what I wanted, but a solution to the Virgin phone line problem.

The Mercury Smart Socket is BABT approved and legal to connect to the public phone network. If you can find one (they're practically obsolete now) this could be a solution to using a dial phone on a Virgin line. This solution was short-lived for me, as soon afterwards I moved house. Virgin refused to reconnect me because they were unwilling to dig up the footpath in front of my house to lay the cable. I'd still love to know if or how it could be reprogrammed as a pulse to tone converter - I'd like to use it with a VoIP adaptor which accepts tone dialling only. [Instruction book for Smart Socket attached.]
Attached Files
File Type: pdf smartsocket_100042.pdf (665.0 KB, 245 views)

Last edited by hamid_1; 13th Nov 2013 at 1:44 am. Reason: spelling mistake
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Old 17th Nov 2013, 11:15 am   #13
Geologytom
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Default Re: Virgin Telephone line and a 746

Thanks all again for further discussion points.

I have yet to play with the dial speed due to needing to service the phone at work, but I will report back any methodology that works.
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Old 27th Apr 2015, 7:57 pm   #14
Garry1963
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Default Re: Virgin Telephone line and a 746

Hi All,

Just joined this site and enjoy reading some of the comments and questions about retro phones. Some users have asked about Virgin Media lines not supporting Pulse tone. Well I can say for sure that up here in Teesside, Virgin has ended Pulse Dialling. I couldn't get through to Virgin Media but managed to find someone on the Internet who confirmed it for me.

I recently bought a Pulse to Tone Converter from Oldphoneworks.com for my 746 retro phone as found I couldnt make outbound calls on it.

This is a great converter and is working great. But what the company neglected to tell me was that the ports on it are RJ11 North American ones. And so two adaptor leads are needed.

The first, (from phone to adaptor) is a RJ11 (US) to BT (BTS) telephone plug adaptor with ringing capacitor, UK Male connection to RJ11 Female, (from Amazon)

The second adaptor lead (from adaptor second port to socket) is a ASDL Micro-Filter with US/UK Female connection and UK Male to phone socket. I tried a regular UK lead at first with no results so the Micro-filter is essential.

There are no sound issues with the phone and it rings ok.

Hope this helps.
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Old 28th Apr 2015, 8:11 am   #15
nutteronthebus
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Default Re: Virgin Telephone line and a 746

HI there was a old line man trick to test the speed of a dial, it was to dial "0" and count 1101 (one thousand one hundred and one) an the dial will have stopped

Dave ( an old line man )
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Old 28th Apr 2015, 8:02 pm   #16
AndiiT
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Default Re: Virgin Telephone line and a 746

Quote:
Originally Posted by Garry1963 View Post
...Some users have asked about Virgin Media lines not supporting Pulse tone. Well I can say for sure that up here in Teesside, Virgin has ended Pulse Dialling.
Speaking as someone with "inside information", as it were, I'm certainly not aware of VM ending pulse dialling at all - as per my earlier post's in this thread the Nortel DMS switch is a bit fussy about pulse dial speeds though.
I can certainly try to make enquiries with one of the switch technicians to confirm if pulse dialling has indeed been ceased though.

I have just tried a pulse dial phone on my own VM line and it has dialled out fine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Garry1963 View Post
I couldn't get through to Virgin Media but managed to find someone on the Internet who confirmed it for me.
It's unlikely that anyone in the call centres would be able to answer the question regarding the cessation of pulse dialling and in view of what I have said above, I suspect that your internet "advisor" may have been ill informed

Regards

Andrew





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