This forum

[Philips210]

Although I was originally in favour of subscriptions for funding our forum, I can now see the potential negatives to this approach. I would therefore happily make a donation or donations to assure the future of our forum. This appears to be the best overall approach judging by the very sensible comments on the matter.

Symon.

[ben]

Just seen this thread after a few days away (blimey! 13 pages, surely some kind of record!) and have a few observations.

-Running costs : First things first: we need to know how much (roughly) the hosting and running costs are likely to be. Without even a vague estimate from the mod team or Paul S, all debate is largely useless, being based as it has been up to now on speculation. I too had imagined that the sale of service data was helping to pay for the forum, but it would seem that either I was mistaken or that amount is no longer enough.

Like countless others, I would be happy to contribute to this forum and personally favour voluntary donation; I believe it would not put people off coming here and (speculating for want of data) I reckon costs could be covered. Like many others, I don't like the idea of greater 'say' or privileges based on money. No two-class system, please.

-It seems from recent developments that some form of reappraisal of the moderation style is needed. By and large I think the existing moderation is great; however, as has been said, the forum has probably outgrown the previous approach.

While anyone who pays the bills to make a forum possible is well within their rights to adopt a 'If you don't like it go elsewhere' position, it misses the point of how productive it is to excercise such a right, especially since without the knowledge and contributions of the members there would also be NO forum. There are clearly more than a few members who feel that this balance has not been kept.

What is more of a problem is when things boil over, as happened recently in the deleted spelling thread - that is what happens when people feel that any criticism, however well intentioned, is dismissed as 'bleating', ' whining', or whatever, and threads disappear from view. Sadly there seem to be some members posting on this thread who share such an authoritarian stance. To those people I say that a quick look at history shows us the fate of places where dissent is frowned upon: exile/brain drain and eventual upheaval!

I think few people are troublemakers for the sake of it. There is a lot of passion here, about the subject of vintage repair and also about the forum as an entity, and we ignore this at our peril. The fact that this thread has sparked off such a lengthy debate is great, far from being something to be removed I feel it strengthens this forum. Let's keep it visible. Anything less only makes martyrs of the vocal minority who insist on careless, illiterate posting. Provided that debate is in the right thread/section, I can't see a problem.

-The skip and post culls: I recognize that I do not know the whole story and sympathise with the thankless work of the mod team, but I also share concerns of those who say that, as contributors who take time to make useful readable posts, they are perturbed if these should simply be wiped. Of course, threads on spam, trolling, old transport, pets etc. are probably fair game for the trashcan, but as to the rest... Who is to say what may be useful later on? This is the problem. Like Jeffrey and Nick and others, I'd err on the side of caution. Deleting and sorting these seems to create unnecessary mod work anyway, as Robert G0UHF has again mentioned.

I'd like to conclude by hoping the criticisms made thus far will be taken in the positive spritit in which they were written, and long may this forum continue. Thanks again to the hard work of Paul and the mods and of course the knowedgeable membership.

[AC/HL]

Originally Posted by repairman 1234

I do hope so. As it happens none of my posts were ever corrected in red, however I can only imagine how I would feel if they had been.

Neither were mine. As an averagely educated one finger typist, I find it ever necessary to re-read and edit quite a few of my posts.
However, it is a matter of pride to me, but that could be a Generation thing. I can imagine my old English Teacher throwing a ghostly board rubber!

Luckily, spelling comes fairly naturally, but I still obey the spell checker for those idiosyncratic spellings that enhance our language

[AidanLunn]

Originally Posted by JoshWard

Similarly would allowing third party hosting such as Photobucket, Flickr etc help reduce space? Then if the original poster deletes the images the whole thread can be junked as well (and that would be a conscious decision by the original poster of what is worthless or not).

Not if it contains valuable tips and stories of how this Thisorthat A1B2C3 TV was restored to working order - other people with the same chassis may still want it and it reduces repetitive threads.

[Radio_Dave]

I'm pleased that this thread is continuing in a polite and civilised fashion and a solution to funding must be here somewhere.

Now, We must sort out a way to deal with grievances on this forum. All too often grievances are posted as spleen venting attacks on the administrator and/or moderators. It must be crushingly devastating for Paul and his team to see such posts and then when decisions have to be made or rules have to be enforced, the moderaters get it in the neck again because no one solution will ever please everyone.

To alleviate some of the pressure on the mods and give some say to the members, may I suggest we adopt some sort of voting system, like that online parliamentary petition thing.

If somebody has a grievance they should politely explain the nature of their complaint and (very importantly) suggest a solution. It would then be up to the members to use a poll to vote either yes or no for an adoption of that solution. The moderators would have the ultimate decision, but they would only need to pass judgement if the yeses exceed a pre determined amount and they exceed the number of noes.

David

[AC/HL]

Originally Posted by ThePillenwerfer

Well said, Josh.

- Joe

My instincts too

[Nickthedentist]

And mine.

And Ben's thoughts tally with mine very closely too.

Nick.

[beamcurrent]

I have been away for a while at work and it has taken a while to read through all the well thought out comments and suggestions, and a few not so well thought out.

Firstly I would like to say how much I appreciate the work put in by Paul and the Moderators and how much I would like to see it continue in the same way. Moderation is a necessary feature of a well run forum, as is clearing out the rubbish in the skip. I trust those who take on this task to know what to dump.

The funding of the forum is more problematic. I am in favour of a Donate Button, with free access for all as it is at the moment. One of the joys of this forum is the range of knowledge that can be accessed on a wide range of restoration related topics and any restriction in the ability to read and then comment, within the forum and moderation rules, would be a loss to us all.

If the simple donate button did not provide sufficient funds then a number of embellishments could be tried, like a bar-graph of donations showing "life left" in the style of a laptop battery indicator. A further embellishment might be an Icon next to your alias to intricate that a donation has been made, with a time out?. (Vanity)

A donation system is easy to administer and, I think, would not attract the attentions of the tax man as a donation is a gift.

Once you move to a subscription type of payment it requires much more management, are you a club, a business, a limited company or what? Much paper work, records of who has paid/not paid, profit & loss, accounts, and the possibility of taxation.

A donation system and access open to all is easy and simple and if absolutely necessary could be supplemented by adverts. see http://videokarma.org/ for and example of a banner with advert and donate button.

On the BVWS support ideas, you might be interested to know how the BATC British Amateur Television Club operates. A couple of years ago the BATC invested in it's own server, ie it bought one, and had it hosted in a data centre. The BATC has a fairly high bandwidth need for the video streamer service that it operates http://batc.tv/ but the BATC also has a forum on the same server, but is is at leas one or two orders of magnitude smaller than this forum. My point is that if the donations are sufficient, then this route is the way to go as you have complete control and as much storage as you wish. You pay rent and bandwidth if you go over your quota. If the BVWS constitution allows such support of a related vintage service it could also donate the the forum funds. Such a donation, being a gift, is without any control of the forum. I don't think the BVWS should be involved in the control of this forum unless it is to save it from closure.

Brian, BVWS & BATC member.

[Sean Williams]

Brian,

Great suggestions, Owning a server would be an interesting way to go, and could open up other areas for revenue if it had masses of spare capacity.

It would also be fairly easy to set up a formal constitution and change the forum into a club, thus negating the possible tax liability, it could then affiliate to the museum, and pass on excess funding as a charitable donation

[AC/HL]

As Kindred Spirits, would there be any mileage in sharing resources (with the BATC) , assuming both parties agreed ?

[Robert Darwent]

Originally Posted by ben

While anyone who pays the bills to make a forum possible is well within their rights to adopt a 'If you don't like it go elsewhere' position, it misses the point of how productive it is to excercise such a right, especially since without the knowledge and contributions of the members there would also be NO forum. There are clearly more than a few members who feel that this balance has not been kept.

I agree with all the observations and points raised by Ben in post #262, particularly the above paragraph.

Very well put!

Regards

[peter_scott]

Beamcurrent's suggetions appeal to me.

Peter

[repairman 1234]

I would not imagine or want a £10 or £20 donation to "buy" me special rights into how the forum is run. Equally, I would not pay to be treat like a naughty schoolboy. Of course the customer isn't really always right (even in my universe...thank you Sean) But they must think that, otherwise they will take the membership money elsewhere.
This Forum is by far one of the better places on the Net if we keep it as it used to be...No self appointed English teachers and not too much of the catty bitching that seems to have been more evident as of late.


Just out of interest this is a genuine question.(I know...second time I have mentioned it)
Why did the little thread with a couple of pics of the Olympic torch get deleted as OT for this Forum, when the Cat thread was left in the same section to thrive?
I am not really bothered about the torch parade nor do I have a dislike of reading about cats, but I would like to see the logic that was applied to its deletion.

Think of this like a shop...
Have nice pleasant staff, who treat customers as real people, not too many rules over and above what you need to keep a good clean shop, and your customers will be happy to come in and spend money.
OR
Have staff that are rude and treat customers as if they are bothering them by asking for help, institute a whole load of crazy rules...and sit back and watch your shop close.

Simples

[Sean Williams]

Er just guessing, the forum has an unwritten agenda that attracts cat owners.

I would also suggest that the selling of Olympic torches would be the next logical step in that thread, so it was kicked out to prevent this happening?

[ppppenguin]

I bow to Beamcurrent's experience here (20+ years treasurer of the BATC) but I'm not sure about his view on the tax status of donations. Obviously if the forum was a charity (feasible but complicated) then there would be no problem.

In any case, if the forum is funded by members' donations or subscriptions it would at the very least have to publish simple accounts. The "it's only a fiver so I don't care if it's spent in the pub" view isn't very satisfactory. Nobody is accusing anyone of dishonesty but it always pays to be open and transparent in money matters. Then nobody can make a fuss*. At their most basic the accounts are no more than:

1. Donations in
2. Expenditure on hosting etc out, backed by invoices
3. Donation to Museum out (if done)
4. Profit or loss is 1-2-3

As soon as money changes hands, whether donation or subs, then governance needs to be sorted out. The very nebulous and barely implied contract that currently exists between owner and members must be replaced by a more formal arrangement. Doesn't need anything complicated or heavily legal, it's effectively a redrawn set of rules that properly define the rights and responsbilities of members, owner and moderators.



Unless this is done in a satisfactory way I would not feel able to donate nor could I recommend that anyone else does so.


*Making a fuss about money. When I was treasurer of a small society one member alleged financial impropriety. I told him that the books were fully open to inspection by any member and he could be accompanied by an accountant or other expert if he so wished. All I asked was that the arrangement did not use a disproportionate amount of my time and effort. Since the main books were on excel spreadsheets I offered to email them to him. He didn't have internet. I offered them on CD by post. His computer wasn't capable of reading spreadsheets. He withdrew his allegations. This illustrates the benefits of openness. When I was BVWS treasurer I had a similar open books policy. Nobody ever took up the offer but I felt much moe comfortable keeping things that way.

[repairman 1234]

Originally Posted by Sean Williams

Er just guessing, the forum has an unwritten agenda that attracts cat owners.

I would also suggest that the selling of Olympic torches would be the next logical step in that thread, so it was kicked out to prevent this happening?

Er don't remember asking for your guess
Don't bother posting in direct reply to anything that I post in the future.

[yesnaby]

here we go again

[Radio_Dave]

Originally Posted by repairman 1234

Just out of interest this is a genuine question.(I know...second time I have mentioned it)
Why did the little thread with a couple of pics of the Olympic torch get deleted as OT for this Forum, when the Cat thread was left in the same section to thrive?

A long time ago we had a thread which question why so many members had pictures of cats as their avatar and it turned out that cats were very popular with our members. Threads about cats are always going to be light hearted and could never cause troubles for the mods.

A thread about the the Olympic torch has no relevance on a radio restoration forum whatsoever and would almost certainly turn into a rant about something or another to do with the negative aspects of the Olympics.

David

[Sean Williams]

Some thinge in life are sad,
They can really make you mad......


But always look on the bright side of life!


Exit. stage left, too many egos on here today!

[Robert Darwent]

Originally Posted by repairman 1234

Why did the little thread with a couple of pics of the Olympic torch get deleted as OT for this Forum, when the Cat thread was left in the same section to thrive? I am not really bothered about the torch parade nor do I have a dislike of reading about cats, but I would like to see the logic that was applied to its deletion.

Originally Posted by Sean Williams

Er just guessing, the forum has an unwritten agenda that attracts cat owners.

I would also suggest that the selling of Olympic torches would be the next logical step in that thread, so it was kicked out to prevent this happening?

Perhaps what you say Sean about the forum attracting cat owners has some truth in it, but Chris's (repairman 1234) question is a valid one.

We have all been told by the admin/mod team on many occasions that they wish the forum to be a technical repository. That's fine by me, I share the same view. But if 'Olympic torches' are off-topic, which they clearly are, then so must be 'cats'.

The torch thread may have been deleted to prevent a discussion of selling from occurring, but clearly stated rules need applying equally and fairly. Otherwise mistrust and ill-feeling is generated when someone else starts a thread that is off-topic and it gets pounced upon whilst they can see a cat thread left untouched.

Originally Posted by ppppenguin

As soon as money changes hands, whether donation or subs, then governance needs to be sorted out. The very nebulous and barely implied contract that currently exists between owner and members must be replaced by a more formal arrangement. Doesn't need anything complicated or heavily legal, it's effectively a redrawn set of rules that properly define the rights and responsbilities of members, owner and moderators.

Unless this is done in a satisfactory way I would not feel able to donate nor could I recommend that anyone else does so.

Something I have also given much consideration over and arrived at the same conclusion Jeffrey.

Regards