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Old 3rd Jul 2005, 4:13 pm   #1
Othy
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Default Ultra 6041 cartridge questions.

Hello,

Firstly can I apologise for my lack of knowledge in these matters.

I recently bought an old Dansette style record player made by Ultra, (model 6041) for playing records in the garden on nice days. It is in great working order and the auto changer works fine.

The trouble is that when I play my records on it they sound quite distorted as if the speaker is distorting. It has external audio inputs and if I plug say a personal CD player into one, with the CD players volume quite low and use the record players volume control the little speaker and amp sounds great. If I turn up the volume of the CD player I get the same effect as playing records - the sound becomes distorted.

This makes me wonder if the old cartridge on this record player is more sensitive than say modern record players (?) like the player in my sitting room. The Stylus on the Ultra 6041 record player is a ST10 LP.S (double sided for 78's and ordinary) and the cartridge is a BSR type X3M. What I am wondering is if I could replace this cartridge and stylus with another more modern cartridge that would not sound so distorted? I wonder if old record player cartridges were more sensitive to play older quieter records?

Any advice you can give would be great,

Thanks in advance,

Tim
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Old 3rd Jul 2005, 4:26 pm   #2
Nickthedentist
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Default Re: Novice needs advice - Put a modern cartridge on a Ultra 6041 (Dansette Style Deck)?

Hello and welcome, Tim.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Othy
It has external audio inputs and if I plug say a personal CD player into one, with the CD players volume quite low and use the record players volume control the little speaker and amp sounds great. If I turn up the volume of the CD player I get the same effect as playing records - the sound becomes distorted.
If you can get your CD player to play through it loud and clear, then the speaker and amp must be OK.

Turning up the CD player's volume control is causing overloading in the pre-amplifier stages, which is normal and not a sign that anything's wrong. Just make sure the CD player's volume control is set fairly low, and use the volume control on the record player to make the sound louder.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Othy
This makes me wonder if the old cartridge on this record player is more sensitive than say modern record players (?) like the player in my sitting room. The Stylus on the Ultra 6041 record player is a ST10 LP.S (double sided for 78's and ordinary) and the cartridge is a BSR type X3M. What I am wondering is if I could replace this cartridge and stylus with another more modern cartridge that would not sound so distorted?
Old cartridges like this use a ceramic material to turn the stylus' movement into an electrical signal, and give out almost 100 times more voltage than a modern magnetic one, which uses a tiny maget attached to the stylus and some coils of very fine wire. The downside of ceramic cartridges is that record wear is a little higher.

I'd say that either your stylus is very worn, or the cartridge is faulty. Try a new stylus first (e.g. from Mantra Audio or Musonic on the Web).

If that makes no difference, you'll need to acquire a replacement ceramic cartridge, which is a little tricky as they haven't been made for a while. Try eBay, maybe, or see if you can find a donor cartidge from something else that's being scrapped (e.g. a 1960s radiogram, a record player like yours, a cheap 1970s music centre, or one of the early 1980s Amstrad "tower" systems).

The other thing to check is that the "stylus pressure" is correct - if it's too light, that would cause distortion. Using a worthless record, add a bit of extra weight to the pick-up by attaching a 2p coin to it with Blu-Tac to see if that makes any difference at all.

Nick.

Last edited by Nickthedentist; 3rd Jul 2005 at 4:36 pm.
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Old 3rd Jul 2005, 5:18 pm   #3
Othy
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Default Re: Novice needs advice - Put a modern cartridge on a Ultra 6041 (Dansette Style Deck)?

Thanks Nick.
I'll start by replacing the stylus - I have already bought a new one on Ebay for around £3 yesterday, so I'll give that a go when it arrives, with luck that will fix it. Thanks again for the advice, Tim.
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Old 6th Jul 2005, 3:21 pm   #4
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Default Re: Novice needs advice - Put a modern cartridge on a Ultra 6041 (Dansette Style Deck)?

Hi. The X3M cartridge will play all types of records from early 78's to the late stereo LP's with first class reproduction. The end letter M stands for medium output and this will be fine for all simple amplifiers with just one stage of valve amplification before the output valve. Most record players of this type used the X3H high output version that delivered around 1000mw and would drive a high gain output valve direct. I'm not sure what sort of amplifier is used in your Ultra but if you can let me know the valve types in the amp I can tell you which type of cartridge to use. I suspect they could be UY85 and UCL82. If this is the case the X3M will be fine but if they are UY85 and UL84 the high output cartridge [X3H] will be required. The stylus is the same for both types. John.
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Old 6th Jul 2005, 5:11 pm   #5
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Default Re: Novice needs advice - Put a modern cartridge on a Ultra 6041 (Dansette Style Deck)?

Hi Tim and welcome

Just to add my bit to what other members have said, a failing cartridge is often more likely to cause poor volume before distortion. When you say the distortion appears at high(er) volume, the cause may just be loose speaker mountings. Also, on very rare occasions a loose fitting amp chassis will cause this, as will a loosely fitting output valve.

You may also need to replace what few waxy caps you may find on the amp and also check the cathode resistor of the output valve if such a resistor is fitted.

As you say you get the same distortion, on high volume, when running your CD thingy through it, I suspect the trouble is indeed with the amp. However, when you play records is the distortion present all the time regardless of volume ?

Others have mentioned styli and stylus pressure. As your machine is an autochanger, check also that the tonearm is moving freely and has no 'back resistance'. This is a common problem with autochangers which have been disused for a time.

Re your implication that old records are/were quieter, this is only really true of records which are today worn out. Many 45rpm records and 78rpms when in good condition will blast out as good as any modern item will. Older cartridges ( such as crystal ) had a high output simply because the amplifiers were basic. Modern equipment with more comprehensive amps only require lower o/p cartridges. Despite the nostalgia-related popularity of Dansette, they were simple, quite cheap machines aimed, at the time, at teenagers and the average working class families. Your Ultra machine, plus many others like Fidelity, Pilot and many Bush, HMV, Defiant etc etc etc were all of the same genre and aimed at the same market. Dansette had an advantage in that many of their products, including radios, were better styled and more colourful and thus appealed to the younger market - hence the nostalgia for them today.

Right, musn't waffle. Let us know how you progress with the Ultra

Last edited by Darren-UK; 1st Jun 2007 at 11:12 am. Reason: Reference to ebay removed.
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Old 6th Jul 2005, 7:34 pm   #6
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Default Re: Novice needs advice - Put a modern cartridge on a Ultra 6041 (Dansette Style Deck)?

Just a couple of points:

First of all, if your Ultra does use valves such as UY85/UL84/UCL82 types then I'd be inclined not to use your CD player as an input source, as when your Ultra was made it is possible that the earth side of the input socket was directly connected to the sub-chassis of the amp, and it could be connected directly to one side of the mains (it may have an isolating cap but they were not always fitted). Such valves suggest a transformerless amp, with the valve heaters taking their voltage from a tap on the gram motor.

As regards the distortion, the volume control in the Ultra's amp should be at its input and thus able to prevent overloading from a source such as a cartridge or your CD player, regardless of the CD player's volume setting - if it can't it might be that the chassis connection of the volume control has come loose. Is there any tone change when the volume control is operated, and does it completely control the volume from zero to full?
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Old 6th Jul 2005, 10:53 pm   #7
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Default Re: Novice needs advice - Put a modern cartridge on a Ultra 6041 (Dansette Style Deck)?

Quote:
Originally Posted by quantum
First of all, if your Ultra does use valves such as UY85/UL84/UCL82 types then I'd be inclined not to use your CD player as an input source, as when your Ultra was made it is possible that the earth side of the input socket was directly connected to the sub-chassis of the amp, and it could be connected directly to one side of the mains (it may have an isolating cap but they were not always fitted). Such valves suggest a transformerless amp, with the valve heaters taking their voltage from a tap on the gram motor.
My service data shows that it's a solid state amp, powered from an isolated winding on the gram motor - so should be safe enough
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Old 7th Jul 2005, 8:48 pm   #8
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Default Re: Novice needs advice - Put a modern cartridge on a Ultra 6041 (Dansette Style Deck)?

Ahh, that would explain it - I only have the R+TV volumes up to 1968 and so couldn't check the circuit, and the valve types were mentioned earlier in the thread.

The types of solid state amps fitted in these grams rarely have the volume control at the input of the amp (often a high to low impedence converting stage is used) so overloading could be possible even if the gram's volume control was set low.
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