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Vintage Tape (Audio), Cassette, Wire and Magnetic Disc Recorders and Players Open-reel tape recorders, cassette recorders, 8-track players etc.

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Old 27th Jun 2019, 8:27 pm   #1
Ray_Singh
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Default Philips N4450 Reel to Reel Tape Player

Hi All.

I am new to the forum and have been a collector and fan for reel to reel tape players for a long time. I am based in Marlborough, Wiltshire.

I have a collection of Reel to Reel tape players including:

Grundig TK14
Civic - very early machine like this:
https://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MTAyNFgxM...YcQ-U/$_86.JPG
Akai 4000D

However, I have always wanted a Philips N4450 as my father worked at the factory near London in the 1970s. He bought two as a salary sacrifice and gave one to his brother (who still has it in Crystal Palace) and the other he gave to his brothers, wife's father. This machine was lost in a house fire.

Both my dad and his brother worked in the Philips factory, so i would like to think that he had a part to play in the machine i buy.

I am going to see a pair of machines in Romford on Saturday. I have secured the pair for £140 - but what should i look out for? I appreciate that i will have to restore these and spend money on them, but want to make sure that they are viable for repair.

Any help appreciated - including any manuals etc.

I note that @sideband talks about working at the factory and a few other users on here that seem to know these machines inside out!
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Old 27th Jun 2019, 9:03 pm   #2
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Default Re: Philips N4450 Reel to Reel Tape Player

I worked in the repair workshop (Philips Service formerly CES) at Waddon and saw a fair number of these. Of course that was back in the mid 70's when these machines were still being serviced. Complete head assemblies were available then and of course all the plug-in modules were replaceable. Now 40 years later it's a bit different! Most problems were confined to power supply, worn switches, worn heads, pinch-rollers, belts and felt pads. Occasionally I'd find myself replacing a faulty wind or rewind motor and even more rarely, tracing a fault on the logic control board. What you are supposed to do if these items are worn out now, I have no idea. Limited spares seem to be available via eBay and I suppose if you bought two, you could evaluate the best one and use the other for spares.

I personally haven't seen or repaired one for 40 years although I do remember some of the problems with them. Back in the day they were considered one of the best domestic machines....not in the same league as Tandberg, Teac or Ampex but still a very good machine.
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Old 27th Jun 2019, 9:37 pm   #3
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Default Re: Philips N4450 Reel to Reel Tape Player

Having just repaired one, I can tell you i’m no fan of them. They look impressive but remove the covers and its a completely different story.

Small motors driving the reels via belts, why they didn’t use beefier motors driving the reels directly is beyond me.

As Sideband has said, its full of small plug in modules which themselves look simple but put together you have a very over complicated machine.

Then there is the goo problem, it gets everywhere and you need a lot of patience and lots of cloths and/or paper towels to clear up the mess!

As I said it looks impressive but its performance is at best mediocre and at worse, poor value for money (when it was new)

Good luck with your purchases, provided it hasn’t been got at, you may be able to get at least one working.
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Old 30th Jun 2019, 7:02 pm   #4
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Default Re: Philips N4450 Reel to Reel Tape Player

Thanks for the comments. I appreciate the help.

I bought two machines this morning for the grand total of £140. They both look in great condition and even have undamaged pastic covers.
They need a good clean and i will check to see if we have power etc tomorrow. I need to get some brownie points back with the wife and kids
The chap who i bought them from in Romford was lovely and these were his lates fathers.

I will restore these if feasable and will look to this forum and its knowledable members for help in getting these going.

Thank you
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Old 1st Jul 2019, 2:08 am   #5
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Default Re: Philips N4450 Reel to Reel Tape Player

Just as a matter or interest are Reel Tape Player/recorders of value?
I don't collect such things myself but I occasionally see them at our local car boot. The last one was a Ferguson in extremely good condition for £10, I nearly bought it, but when I felt the weight of it I put it back down and moved on!
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Old 1st Jul 2019, 7:59 am   #6
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Default Re: Philips N4450 Reel to Reel Tape Player

Clive - Depends on who you plan to sell them to I guess. But for £10 you can't go wrong.

Have a look at eBay etc to see what is selling and how much for. Nagra units sell for £5k plus, whilst something more common like a Akai 4000D will be about £200.

I buy them because I like them, the investment is secondary.
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Old 1st Jul 2019, 2:56 pm   #7
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Default Re: Philips N4450 Reel to Reel Tape Player

I found some time to try these machines today.

Machine 1
I plugged her in and turned her on. All lights come on, but the buttons do nothing. I suspect either Flip Flop corrosion or a belt problem. I will investigate further.

Machine 2
I opened the back storage panel where the mains plug is normally and no plug, only bare wires. I wired up a plug (not that there is no earth!!) and fired her up. I can hear something turning inside. The forward and rewind works!

I will try with some reels later this afternoon.

Some asks of you please:

1. Does anyone have the manuals for this machine that they would be willing to share?
2. I need to find some 10.5 spools as all the reel to reel machines i have are either the tiny spools, or the medium sized spools. I need some 10.5" ones.

More updates as and when i have them!
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Old 1st Jul 2019, 8:42 pm   #8
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Default Re: Philips N4450 Reel to Reel Tape Player

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray_Singh View Post
Machine 1
I plugged her in and turned her on. All lights come on, but the buttons do nothing. I suspect either Flip Flop corrosion or a belt problem. I will investigate further.
If the 'Function' switch is in the 'AMP' position, none of the buttons will work. Worth just a quick check. Broken belts won't stop the buttons from operating.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray_Singh View Post
(note that there is no earth!!) and fired her up. I can hear something turning inside. The forward and rewind works!
It's Class II....no earth required since it's double-insulated.
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Old 1st Jul 2019, 9:37 pm   #9
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Default Re: Philips N4450 Reel to Reel Tape Player

Thanks Sideband. Your knowledge is most welcome on this project.

Machine 1 now working. I removed all the plug in boards, cleaned the contacts with switch cleaner. The undersides of the board looked gunky, so I cleaned these with a flux pen. Plugged back in and hey presto all working. I can't check the output at the moment as I haven't owned a DIN cable for a few years!

A couple of observations:
  • One bulb blown - the light guides in this machine are a work of art!!
  • The counter doesn't seem to reset
  • I can't get the "timer auto switch off" to work
  • On/Off switch is sticky
  • When playing "Occasionally" the take up spool is too slow and the tape overfeeds and spills. If you press STOP and try again, things are OK again.
  • Headphone cover is broken

I will buy a DIN cable and see if i can hear any output.

Machine 2 - No output. I've not spent masses of time on this one, but on firing up, I can't hear anything turning inside. I will take the rear cover off tomorrow.

I am loving these machines - they are mad. I love the technology - no sign of surface mount! The light tube tech is amazing!
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Old 2nd Jul 2019, 5:08 am   #10
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Default Re: Philips N4450 Reel to Reel Tape Player

When I restored my N4450, I noticed a tapped hole marked with the earth symbol in the bracket that held the mains cable. I fitted a 3 core cable, earth wire to a solder tag screwed to that hole. I then fitted one of those in-line 3 pin connectors to the cable close to the machine, which has the advantage that it will fit through the hole in the bottom cover (a 13A mains plug won't) so you can completely remove said cover and not have it dangling on the cable.

I then made up a short 2-core cable fitted with the same in-line connectors. I can put that between the machine and the rest of the mains lead if I am connecting it to, say, an earthed amplifier and have earth loop problems.
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Old 2nd Jul 2019, 9:21 am   #11
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Default Re: Philips N4450 Reel to Reel Tape Player

Thanks Tony - I will investigate this, but it would seem that the earth won't do anything anyway as per Sideband's comments?

Does anyone know the model number differences between these machines? I have two
N4 450/15
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Old 2nd Jul 2019, 10:21 am   #12
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Default Re: Philips N4450 Reel to Reel Tape Player

The on/off switches are a problem on these machines, I replaced one a couple of weeks ago, but you will not get a Philips one, what you'll have to do is find a TV switch, then drill holes in the bracket as the original switch was offset and use spacers to set the switch back. You may also have to file the end bit of the switch to take the original button.

Other things:

I got 20V wire ended bulbs from RS

You will have to take the counter to pieces, clean out the muchk and re-assemble. If its had belt goo in it then forget it!

Cant help you with the timer switch

On/Off switch has been discussed.

Check continuity of the two tension switches, clean and adjust as necessary, then adjust the tape tension.

There are instruction and service manuals on hi fi engine You will have to register then you can download the manuals

Good luck.
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Old 2nd Jul 2019, 3:59 pm   #13
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Default Re: Philips N4450 Reel to Reel Tape Player

Earthing the machine should have no effect unless you are connecting it to another earthed device (such as an amplifier) where you may end up with an earth loop causing hum. Since the N4450 can be used with such an amplifier _or as a standalone machine, I wired mine so it could be earthed to the mains plug or not as I wished.

Originally it was designed as double-insulated and safe without an earth. But after all these years I feel safer with the ability to tie that expoed metalwork to ground.

The timer unit basically completes the circuit between the common contact on the 'minutes' side of the unit to the upper contact on the 'hours' side to start and the lower contact to stop. You can check the electronics by using a clip lead to complete these circuits (with the timer turned on but not set anywhere near the time it is to operate).

I did completely strip and rebuild my timer, the photos are in the N4450 album in my flickr account (tony_duell). I will post a link if necessary. It's not hard to do, but there are a lot of small parts that like to spring out so if you are not used to doing mechanical repairs it may be best to leave it.
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Old 2nd Jul 2019, 8:53 pm   #14
Ray_Singh
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Default Re: Philips N4450 Reel to Reel Tape Player

Machine 2 has the dreaded black gunk that was once a belt all over the PCB. Any idea what is best to remove this please?
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Old 3rd Jul 2019, 6:33 am   #15
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Default Re: Philips N4450 Reel to Reel Tape Player

Ordinary kitchen degreaser or Swarfega hand cleaner does wonders. I would think you'd need to follow up with alcohol or something to get off any residue from the cleaning agent, but that's a minor thing compared to getting rid of the gunk.
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Old 3rd Jul 2019, 12:55 pm   #16
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Default Re: Philips N4450 Reel to Reel Tape Player

If you use the search box above you'll find many posts about this. A common theme is to wear old clothes, it gets everywhere and it is impossible to clean!
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Old 3rd Jul 2019, 1:34 pm   #17
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Default Re: Philips N4450 Reel to Reel Tape Player

Make sure you dont get it on carpets, table cloths or anything with a soft or fabric surface. Make sure you use plenty of kitchen paper and throw the paper into a plastic bag as soon as you've used it, dont leave it lying around.
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Old 10th Jul 2019, 7:16 am   #18
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Default Re: Philips N4450 Reel to Reel Tape Player

I spent hours cleaning machine 2 of rubber gunk using metalated spirits. You were all right, its a pig of a job and should be tackeld outside with gloves. I still have a few marks on my hands where my nitrile gloves ripped and its been days and literally 100's of handwashes later. Whilst cleaning i happend to find a few stray wires. I opened up machine 1 to compare and noted that the missing part is a square pcb board (mounted at an odd angle). I asked my father what this might be and he said "its the motor". I fear that the motor is missing!!

This machine maybe just a parts beast now for machine 1 to live. I will show my father both machines and decide the best way forward.

Im a little upset as I paid out for these two machines, the same amount as one currently on Ebay (fully working). Oh well....... If anyone needs spares.....?

Last edited by Ray_Singh; 10th Jul 2019 at 7:17 am. Reason: ETA - If anyone needs spares
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Old 14th Jul 2019, 9:30 am   #19
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Default Re: Philips N4450 Reel to Reel Tape Player

After recovering from the shock/horror about machine 2. I have finally plucked the courage to continue with machine 1.

Please can an expert tell me which control buttons on the front panel should light up when the machine is turned on?

The REC button turns on, on my machine, and i fear that it is recording over my tape i am using to trial the machine.
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Old 14th Jul 2019, 6:51 pm   #20
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Default Re: Philips N4450 Reel to Reel Tape Player

The 'square PCB at an odd angle' sounds like the capstan motor electronics. It's mounted on the motor iteslf which drives the 2 capstans via a belt. I don't know if you are missing just the PCB or the complete motor assembly.

As an aside, some versions of the service manual give the circuit diagram for this part.

I think at switch-on one of the 'direction' lamps should glow at low brightness showing the direction it was last used in. All others should be off. Normally when you get lamps on at switch-on it's due to faulty transistors (particularly the AC128s) on the flip-flop boards. There are 4 flip-flops on each of 2 boards, each consists of a BC147 (or BC547) and an AC128 (only Philips would make a flip-flop with a silicon NPN transistor and a germanium PNP transistor!).

And yes if the 'REC' lamp is on, it's likely the relay on the amplifier baseboard is energised. At which point it _will_ erase any tape you run through it.
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