UK Vintage Radio Repair and Restoration Powered By Google Custom Search Vintage Radio and TV Service Data

Go Back   UK Vintage Radio Repair and Restoration Discussion Forum > Specific Vintage Equipment > Vintage Tape (Audio), Cassette, Wire and Magnetic Disc Recorders and Players

Notices

Vintage Tape (Audio), Cassette, Wire and Magnetic Disc Recorders and Players Open-reel tape recorders, cassette recorders, 8-track players etc.

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old 23rd May 2020, 9:04 pm   #41
jascha
Hexode
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Kent, UK.
Posts: 332
Default Re: Studer / Revox etc BiPolar PROMS! Question and concerns!

Yes indeed I have been talking with jsantoro on a different forum as some months ago he came to my rescue in helping me fix my A807 and his help and knowledge were really helpful. He’s a great guy.
Thanks for your help and indeed it would really be helpful to have these ICs data backed up and made available to the community just in case.
I will send you a PM when I hopefully can get my hands on a separate set of spare programmed ICs as I feel a bit nervous sending my own in the post in case they get lost and end up without a functioning machine for a while. I would think that I will be able to get hold of a spare set after the Summer.
Cheers
jascha is offline  
Old 23rd May 2020, 10:51 pm   #42
jascha
Hexode
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Kent, UK.
Posts: 332
Default Re: Studer / Revox etc BiPolar PROMS! Question and concerns!

Ps: I’m glad that jsantoro has now joined this forum too and between you all there’s so much knowledge shared that will be of great help to so many. I personally am very grateful to you all for sharing your expertise and time to help out. Jim is absolutely right in that these devices are now ageing and it’s a good move that we backup all we can from these discreet components do we ensure that these great treasures carry on bring in service for future years to come.
The rest of the machine uses pretty much standard components in comparison so that’s a relief.
Have a good weekend everyone
jascha is offline  
Old 24th May 2020, 5:42 pm   #43
SiriusHardware
Dekatron
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Newcastle, Tyne and Wear, UK.
Posts: 11,484
Default Re: Studer / Revox etc BiPolar PROMS! Question and concerns!

After some further thought and a few further exchanges with jascha via PM, I have thrown together the attached crude circuit diagram of an adaptor which will allow an 82S123 PROM to be read with a normal EPROM programmer as though it is a 28-pin EPROM.

Physically, this might take the form of a 16 pin turned-pin IC socket with insulated wires, say 3 inches long, soldered to all 16 pins on the underside of the socket. These wires would be routed and soldered as shown on the diagram to the TOP contacts on a 28-pin IC socket.

The PROM to be read is inserted in the 16-pin socket, the 28-pin socket is inserted into the ZIF socket on the EPROM programmer.

In the programmer's software choose any manufacturer's version of 27256 EPROM.

If it is possible to set the FROM and TO address range in the prgrammer's software, change it from the default 27256 range of 0000-7FFF and set it to 0000-001F.

Select 'Read Device' in the programmer's menu. The first 32 bytes of the hex display in the hex viewer / editor of the programmer software should now contain the code from the PROM.

In the 'Save' menu of the programmer's software, select a meaningful name for the code and save it in whatever file format you require - I would suggest binary with a .bin filename extension. If you are prompted for a FROM and TO address range to save, choose FROM 0000, TO 001F.

Note that this adaptor is read-only, and sadly will not give the EPROM programmer the miraculous ability to program PROMs.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	82s123_read_as_27256.jpg
Views:	183
Size:	55.7 KB
ID:	206658  
SiriusHardware is online now  
Old 24th May 2020, 5:52 pm   #44
jascha
Hexode
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Kent, UK.
Posts: 332
Default Re: Studer / Revox etc BiPolar PROMS! Question and concerns!

That is truly amazing and I will build an adapter and try it out. Thanks so much for this circuit and for your time to help. Indeed a shame that our modern programmers cannot program old PROMs as you say but that’s the trouble with technology... it moves on and it’s up to us to fight back and challenge the modern times so we can keep these vintage machines running for many years to come. They are unbeatable if set up to optimum alignments!
jascha is offline  
Old 24th May 2020, 7:02 pm   #45
jsantoro
Diode
 
Join Date: May 2020
Location: Fort Mill, South Carolina, USA.
Posts: 9
Default Re: Studer / Revox etc BiPolar PROMS! Question and concerns!

Hi Sirius,

I'd love to see the Arduino circuit and sketch you used to read them out. This forum is going to be bad for my wallet as I love old tube radios, TVs etc.
Go to go a Studer A800 is eating driving me crazy. It already ate my lunch.

Jim
jsantoro is offline  
Old 24th May 2020, 8:11 pm   #46
KeithsTV
Nonode
 
KeithsTV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: South Bradford, West Yorkshire, UK.
Posts: 2,571
Default Re: Studer / Revox etc BiPolar PROMS! Question and concerns!

I don't know if this will help but I've found a number of what I assume are unprogrammed PROMs. Not the 123s but possibly an adaptor could be made.

The PROMS which may be useable are

N82S181N 24 pin 1024 x 8
TBP28S42N 20 pin 512 x 8
TBP28L22MJ 20 pin 256 x 8

plus N82S137N 18 pin 1024 x 4

If these are of use let me know as I have no use for them and no means of checking or programming them.

Keith
KeithsTV is offline  
Old 24th May 2020, 8:49 pm   #47
SiriusHardware
Dekatron
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Newcastle, Tyne and Wear, UK.
Posts: 11,484
Default Re: Studer / Revox etc BiPolar PROMS! Question and concerns!

jsantoro, here is the Arduino PROM reader sketch attached. The forum doesn't know what a .ino file is so I have had to wrap it up in a .zip file. I've changed one line to tell it to read only 32 bytes as per 82S123, it can read devices of up to 512 Bytes.

Output is 16-column ASCII HEX sent to the serial monitor in the Arduino IDE at the default baudrate of 9600bd. It starts as you as you open the serial monitor. Just press reset on the Arduino to run it again.

If you want to save the code displayed on the serial monitor screen, just drag around and and 'copy' the hex code only, paste it into a simple text editor like notepad and save it as whateveryoulike.hex.

There's no circuit as such, it's just the Arduino and the PROM. Connections from the Arduino to an 82S123 would be...

Code:
82S123       Arduino
pin          pin   

8            GND
16           5V

1            5
2            6
3            7
4            8
5            9
6            10
7            11
9            12

10           A0
11           A1
12           A2
13           A3
14           A4

15           13
Attached Files
File Type: zip romreader.zip (2.1 KB, 78 views)
SiriusHardware is online now  
Old 25th May 2020, 5:45 pm   #48
jsantoro
Diode
 
Join Date: May 2020
Location: Fort Mill, South Carolina, USA.
Posts: 9
Default Re: Studer / Revox etc BiPolar PROMS! Question and concerns!

Thanks a bunch, I'll try it this week when I get some time. (ha)
Digging around I did find my old Curtis Nammer used to burn the NAM proms in old analog cell phones. They happen to be 32x8 bi-polar proms. Don't have the book but it does default to Signetics, setting to anything else would be a guess. And if I remember each mfg had their own logarithm
jsantoro is offline  
Old 25th May 2020, 10:34 pm   #49
SiriusHardware
Dekatron
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Newcastle, Tyne and Wear, UK.
Posts: 11,484
Default Re: Studer / Revox etc BiPolar PROMS! Question and concerns!

Yes, with Bipolar PROMs you have an odd situation where many manufacturers made PROMs which had identical pin-outs and were indistinguishable / compatible in read mode, but each manufacturer gave theirs a completely different part number and usually had a unique electrical programming algorithm which worked only for their PROMs. Some PROM manufacturers such as 'Tesla' in eastern Europe have never been widely supported by programmers, so they are among the cheapest ones to be found - because hardly anyone can programme them.

When it came to EPROMs there was a little more standardisation with all the common types having the same base number (2732, 2764 27128, etc) and there was always a slow 'generic' algorithm through which any manufacturer's EPROM could always be programmed. But then each manufacturer also had their own in-house 'fast' programming algorithm for their parts and no two of these fast algorithms were necessarily the same either. Bit of a minefield.
SiriusHardware is online now  
Old 25th May 2020, 10:52 pm   #50
TonyDuell
Dekatron
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Biggin Hill, London, UK.
Posts: 5,190
Default Re: Studer / Revox etc BiPolar PROMS! Question and concerns!

And a lot of manufacturers of bipolar PROMs, PALs, etc (at least for later devices) would NOT release the programming algorithm (other than under NDA) so you couldn't build your own programmer.

And Texas Instruments had their own versions of some of the EPROMs. What everybody else called a 2716 was a 2516 from TI. Their 2716 needed 3 supply voltages. They also had things like the 2564, close to a 2764 but with different enables (not just a pin swap). A lot of programmers can't handle the TI parts which can be a pain.
TonyDuell is offline  
Old 26th May 2020, 8:56 am   #51
Radio Wrangler
Moderator
 
Radio Wrangler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Fife, Scotland, UK.
Posts: 22,800
Default Re: Studer / Revox etc BiPolar PROMS! Question and concerns!

Looking back at the schematics in post 9,...

these proms seem to simply be look-up tables as an alternative to some combinational logic. There are no flip-flops in them so they rely on an off-chip counter to sequence things. You could probably replace them with any of:

A small board wit several logic chips
A programmed PAL
A small CPU

It should also be possible to work out what the combinational logic must be, either from considering the operation, or from monitoring waveforms on a working unit.
The programmes for the original parts might not be disseminated, but it's a poor secret which can be deduced.

David
__________________
Can't afford the volcanic island yet, but the plans for my monorail and the goons' uniforms are done
Radio Wrangler is online now  
Old 12th Jun 2020, 12:19 am   #52
jsantoro
Diode
 
Join Date: May 2020
Location: Fort Mill, South Carolina, USA.
Posts: 9
Default Re: Studer / Revox etc BiPolar PROMS! Question and concerns!

Hi,

I finally got around to trying to copy the A807 spooling and capstan PROMS of my personal machine on my old bipolar programmer. I copied both successfully and the machine is running on them right now. I have the files saved off in case anyone has a 32x8 bit programmer. Or if need be I can burn them for you if you supply the chips.I used the NMI 6331-1 equivalent of the Signetics 82S123 but there are TI and AMD version out there also. Interesting that the originals on my spooling board were Signetics and the capstan board has a NMI.

Jim
jsantoro is offline  
Old 12th Jun 2020, 8:21 am   #53
jascha
Hexode
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Kent, UK.
Posts: 332
Thumbs up Re: Studer / Revox etc BiPolar PROMS! Question and concerns!

That's fantastic Jim and thanks. Certainly a relief knowing that we have a backup now.

jascha is offline  
Old 4th Aug 2020, 2:33 pm   #54
SiriusHardware
Dekatron
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Newcastle, Tyne and Wear, UK.
Posts: 11,484
Default Re: Studer / Revox etc BiPolar PROMS! Question and concerns!

A footnote to this thread, forum member jsantoro kindly read out the contents of the capstan motor encoder PROM and the spool motor encoder PROMs. They are saved as Intel Hex files and sensibly named so that it is obvious which one is which.

If you have a very old (DOS-era) PROM programmer you may need to shorten / simplify the file names before your programmer's software will load them.

I have wrapped them up in a .zip file as the forum does not accept .hex files as direct attachments.
Attached Files
File Type: zip A807-PROMs.zip (395 Bytes, 93 views)
SiriusHardware is online now  
Old 4th Aug 2020, 6:56 pm   #55
jascha
Hexode
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Kent, UK.
Posts: 332
Default Re: Studer / Revox etc BiPolar PROMS! Question and concerns!

Thanks for all your help Jim and Graham. I’m very grateful for all your input these last weeks and wanted to thank you publicly.

Kind regards
jascha is offline  
Old 4th Aug 2020, 7:52 pm   #56
SiriusHardware
Dekatron
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Newcastle, Tyne and Wear, UK.
Posts: 11,484
Default Re: Studer / Revox etc BiPolar PROMS! Question and concerns!

You're welcome, the 'spare spares' will be on the way to you by the end of the week.

While looking back for this thread I noticed that you had posted another thread back in March asking for an image of the EPROM - you hopefully managed to get one but I'm guessing the EPROM failure is what set you off on the path of trying to back up the other programmed devices in the machine as well?
SiriusHardware is online now  
Old 4th Aug 2020, 7:55 pm   #57
jascha
Hexode
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Kent, UK.
Posts: 332
Default Re: Studer / Revox etc BiPolar PROMS! Question and concerns!

That’s correct . I had caused the fault by opening up the machine whilst it was in operation. I managed to obtain images of the Eproms and learnt how to programme them however I could not rest my mind after that incident until I made sure I have backups of every type of device that is programmable.

I look forward to receiving the backups and then to settle the sums with you.
Cheers
C
jascha is offline  
Old 11th Aug 2020, 12:10 pm   #58
Amraduk
Hexode
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Welwyn Garden City, Hertfordshire, UK.
Posts: 453
Default Re: Studer / Revox etc BiPolar PROMS! Question and concerns!

I have a Revox B77 MKI tape recorder. I think the PROM IC SC10249 (IC4) may be faulty. Would it be possible to program a suitable replacement using the methods outlined here?

Regards,

Dave.
Amraduk is offline  
Old 11th Aug 2020, 3:55 pm   #59
Amraduk
Hexode
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Welwyn Garden City, Hertfordshire, UK.
Posts: 453
Default Re: Studer / Revox etc BiPolar PROMS! Question and concerns!

Some additional info. I've just looked at the PROM IC (IC4), it has the 'M' symbol for Motorola followed by 7803, below that is 'STUDER' and below that is 50.05.0143.

Regards,

Dave.
Amraduk is offline  
Old 11th Aug 2020, 6:07 pm   #60
SiriusHardware
Dekatron
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Newcastle, Tyne and Wear, UK.
Posts: 11,484
Default Re: Studer / Revox etc BiPolar PROMS! Question and concerns!

Hello AmradUK - there is no method for programming PROMs outlined in this thread, only for reading them. To programme replacements, you need a specialised device programmer which can program them.

I don't know your machine but if the chip has both the Motorola symbol and 'Studer' marked on the device itself, not on a label, it sounds like it may be a PROM manufactured specifically for Studer (that is, a 'Mask Programmed' device rather than a generic programmable device programmed with the code after it was made).

Could you please let us see what the chip looks like, how many pins, etc, and maybe we can give you an idea of what it is and what you could replace it with. If you can point us to a circuit diagram for the machine so we can see how the chip is used / wired up, that may also help to identify a substitute.

The main problem is that you would need to read the code out of a known good chip, ie, from a known working machine and then programme a replacement device with that code. If we can identify the device and a programmable substitute, and if you or anyone else can provide the code which needs to go into it, someone here, myself or someone else, will programme the replacement device for you.
SiriusHardware is online now  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 10:35 pm.


All information and advice on this forum is subject to the WARNING AND DISCLAIMER located at https://www.vintage-radio.net/rules.html.
Failure to heed this warning may result in death or serious injury to yourself and/or others.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright ©2002 - 2023, Paul Stenning.