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Old 8th Jan 2020, 3:21 pm   #1
WaveyDipole
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Default Sheds, damp and test equipment

Last month I discovered that one of my PSUs as well as an insulation tester had failed. Both were previously working when used during the summer/autumn months a few weeks earlier. Without getting into details (separate thread for that) the likely culprit in both cases is damp.

This has led me to thinking more seriously about the subject of storing and protecting one's electronic test equipment from the damp. I imagine that many of us have set up workshop in a garage, shed or outbuilding, so how to protect equipment from damp? I found a couple of threads on shed insulation, but nothing specifically on this topic.

My shed is 8x6 plastic, which was convenient at the time because it could be easily moved if required, but the walls cannot really be drilled or provide support. Although it came supplied with a couple of plastic shelves, these tend to bend under the weight of electronic equipment such as PSU's, so I have had to be a bit creative. I had considered using the garage that I have out back on a rented plot, but a large part of the floor is always wet after rain, there is no electricity and no means of easily getting some there other than a very long extension (running over council land so nothing permanent) or perhaps a generator.

So what do others do? Bring equipment indoors over the winter months and bring out as needed? Store in some particular manner? Is there anything I can do to make my plastic shed drier (e.g. dehumidifier - if I can find the space to put one in there) or will I require a shed of different construction?
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Old 8th Jan 2020, 3:29 pm   #2
paulsherwin
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Default Re: Sheds, damp and test equipment

Any unheated outbuilding will suffer from condensation in the winter. A dehumidifier may help but is unlikely to be a complete solution.
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Old 8th Jan 2020, 3:36 pm   #3
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Default Re: Sheds, damp and test equipment

..and will require an electricity supply
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Old 8th Jan 2020, 3:39 pm   #4
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Default Re: Sheds, damp and test equipment

Plastic and metal sheds always condensate like mad, the best thing would be a wood shed, it can (within reason) control it's own damp levels by absorbing moisture.
I have a 6 x 4 wood shed which only sees a dehumidifier in about October time through to the end of said month, this controls the damp.
The aforementioned shed is only used primarily as a place to store Xmas stuff and workshop overflow.
The main workshop is a mixture of brick, metal and wood, basically a real building, it is rare a dehumidifier is needed, if ever.
Personally, wood is better than plastic, the moisture can then go into the wood as opposed to dripping off the roof/down the walls.
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Old 8th Jan 2020, 3:40 pm   #5
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Default Re: Sheds, damp and test equipment

I've found that double walls and roof, preferably with a layer of fibreglass insulation can avoid the need for heat or dehumidifier, but it's not cheap!

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Old 8th Jan 2020, 3:46 pm   #6
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Default Re: Sheds, damp and test equipment

Just had another thought, there are desiccant gel pots available, the bottom of it holds the water, these are once only devices but may be a better solution for the winter.
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Old 8th Jan 2020, 4:06 pm   #7
David Simpson
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Default Re: Sheds, damp and test equipment

WD, if you check back through "Search", a year or two back there was a long & well answered thread on Shed problems. Heaps of advice was given. Condensation, Dew Point, Insulation & Ventilation was discussed at depth.

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Old 8th Jan 2020, 4:09 pm   #8
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Default Re: Sheds, damp and test equipment

You could potentially still insulate with celotex board, attached with more inventive means, and covered with some kind of light weight sheet glued to it. Even 25 mm is better than nothing. Build a self supporting structure for it that doesn't need attaching to the walls?

If there are no other sources of damp and its not draughty, then its a case of warming it up and running a dehumidifier. A dehumidifier on its own will do very little if the air is cold. The air needs to be warm to hold the moisture and for it to be caught in the dehumidifier.

Im not sure dessicant pots in the shed will help too much, they will probably saturate very quickly and prove expensive.

What you COULD do, is store the test gear in sealable plastic boxes (really useful type), and stick silica packs in with them. I've done that with a few things and its worked for me
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Old 8th Jan 2020, 5:19 pm   #9
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Default Re: Sheds, damp and test equipment

To achieve a relative humidity of about 50% a refrigerant type dehumidifier needs to cool the air to at least 20°C below ambient temperature which causes a problem with icing when the ambient temperature is below normal room temperature.

Desiccant type dehumidifiers reduce the humidity not by cooling but by passing the air through desiccant and then dry the desiccant by heating it. Desiccant type dehumidifiers can reduce the dew point to far below freezing and are generally suitable for unheated spaces.

With a desiccant type dehumidifier there is no need for heating and ventilation should be minimised to avoid bringing in moisture.

I do not store any electronic equipment in a garage or shed. What I cannot keep indoors is sold or given away to make space for the last purchases.

David
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Old 8th Jan 2020, 5:38 pm   #10
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Default Re: Sheds, damp and test equipment

For my basement I have a peltier type dehumidifier which basically creates a cold surface, the moisture in the air condenses on this and drips off into a collection tub which I empty weekly.
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Old 8th Jan 2020, 6:15 pm   #11
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Default Re: Sheds, damp and test equipment

I use a desiccant type dehumidifier on a GRP boat, probably not too dissimilar to a plastic shed, maybe better insulated, but in the water all year round.

Desiccant dehumidifiers work down to near zero degrees where the compressor types don’t really work properly below about 10 degrees. We have a Meaco DD8L Junior. It only runs if the air is above the humidity level you set. This seems to keep everything dry, even on its least-dry setting.

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Old 8th Jan 2020, 6:29 pm   #12
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Default Re: Sheds, damp and test equipment

The worst type of shed for equipment is one with a concrete floor without a DPC. (AKA a sponge) I have had much less problems since moving house and having a shed with a timber floor which simply sits on sleepers. Of course when you 'inherit' someone else's idea of a shed you often end up with conditions only suitable for pushbikes and lawnmowers.

The few items of sensitive equipment that i keep in the timber shed are in a retired softwood shotgun cabinet, stripped of it's steel lining. This is less than satisfactory when compared to keeping stuff in the house, but the idea is keeping the dust off them and also (hopefully) giving the equipment an environmental time delay when there is a sudden humidity or temperature change. Results for the first 6 months are encouraging.

A garage with a damp concrete floor is pretty dismal- occasionally in the winter i find salt crystals growing up out of the floor (although i think the car is responsible for importing the salt in the first place.)

Dave
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Old 8th Jan 2020, 6:29 pm   #13
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Default Re: Sheds, damp and test equipment

The last time this was discussed in detail [it's a common topic] a number of people said they relied on low level heat and some dehumidifier action or ventilation [not needed if highly insulated perhaps]. I've just run the DH in my poorly insulated garage/office/work room which needs improvement. I keep a low level convector running but I have indoor space available as well. If you don't need a "mobile" shed and there's space for the same [or bigger] in wood, secure with a power supply I'd dump/sell the plastic one or reuse it for non electronic items.

It's probably been the worst option in a way If buying or making [much cheaper] a wooden shed is not viable then you may need to make the best of what you've got and try to accommodate some gear indoors but really, the only thing worse would be metal. Even more condensation and presumably, very little reception I can't recall anyone else that's used a plastic building but I could be wrong.

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Old 8th Jan 2020, 6:58 pm   #14
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Default Re: Sheds, damp and test equipment

A dehumidifier is always a good thing to go for: here at Tanuki Towers i've got an Ebac 'Powerdri' which runs continually from october to march and is every day dragging at least 2 litres of water from the air. It's sitting in the 'office' where all the damp-sensitive electronics and stuff live, so that 2 litres a day is only a part of the house-dampness.

If you're storing stuff 'outside' then you really need a combination of background-heat and active dehumidification. In times-past I had to specify 'cabins' containing stuff that could be shipped to pretty-much anywhere on the planet and *had* to work (if it didn't, you'd risk losing rather-expensive airframes and crews) - it was fun explaining why you had 2.5KVA for the electronics/computers and 7.5KVA for the aircon/dehumidifiers to keep the electronics/computers happy.

Cool! Dehumidify! Heat! Dehumidify! Even in the desert we never needed to *add* dampness.
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Old 8th Jan 2020, 7:05 pm   #15
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Default Re: Sheds, damp and test equipment

I would agree with the comments RE: heating the room while operating dehumidifier, the shed can go as low as freezing point, a fan heater sorts that out.
The best machine to go for is one that has an in-built defrost heater, otherwise it'll ice up big time!
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Old 8th Jan 2020, 7:33 pm   #16
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Default Re: Sheds, damp and test equipment

My old workshop was a 1970’s built brick garage with asbestos roof and a big metal door, not to mention a concrete floor. When I finally made use of the end with the big door (that had previously been partitioned off by a stud wall) I built a new stud wall over the door and filled the space with cheap loft insulation, I also put up a ceiling and put the same insulation above it too. The only problems with damp were from neighbouring garages, one side had a leaky roof, and the other side had some dipstick with a pressure washer, who liked jet washing his van outside my garage and for some unknown reason kept spraying it round my garage door... I never ran a dehumidifier in there, but did have an old 1kw greenhouse heater running in there, which I still use in my new workshop.

My new workshop is an own design wooden ‘shed’, 16x8’ with 50mm foil backed foam insulation, and a moisture barrier membrane type stuff, there are no damp problems in there! And the insulation is brilliant, keeps it nice and toasty in there in the winter with just the heater I mentioned earlier, and keeps it cool in the summer, so long as the door and window are kept shut. I’m sure it could be done better, I’m no builder, but I do like to have a go

I’ve included some photos of both the garage and the new shed.

Regards
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Old 8th Jan 2020, 7:39 pm   #17
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Default Re: Sheds, damp and test equipment

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Philpott View Post
The worst type of shed for equipment is one with a concrete floor without a DPC. (AKA a sponge)
Dave

I would concur with this. Back in the summer I built a brick generator shed with a concrete floor. During the recent wet spell the floor was awash. I think a mixture of upwards seepage and condensation. Project for when the weather gets better is a DP layer and some wall lining.
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Old 8th Jan 2020, 7:59 pm   #18
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Default Re: Sheds, damp and test equipment

Quote:
Originally Posted by Glowing Bits! View Post
I would agree with the comments RE: heating the room while operating dehumidifier, the shed can go as low as freezing point, a fan heater sorts that out.!
Also remember that a dehumidifier provides heat.

Both the heat derived from the power you feed it, and the "latent heat of condensation" recovered from the water-vapour it condenses.

[think of this as like boiling-a-kettle-backwards: when 'steam' is converted back to water it returns the energy that was used to convert water into steam]

Of course, ultimately, Entropy has us all outnumbered. You can *locally* get one-over on the Gas-Equations and the Laws of Thermodynamics and so make somewhere temporarily warmer/drier - but the heat-Death of the Universe is inevitable!
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Old 8th Jan 2020, 9:39 pm   #19
WaveyDipole
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Default Re: Sheds, damp and test equipment

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Simpson View Post
WD, if you check back through "Search", a year or two back there was a long & well answered thread on Shed problems. Heaps of advice was given. Condensation, Dew Point, Insulation & Ventilation was discussed at depth.

Regards, David
David you mentioned that one I think on my transformer insulation thread but I'm still looking for it! Not doubting for a minute that it is there somewhere.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Philpott View Post
The worst type of shed for equipment is one with a concrete floor without a DPC. (AKA a sponge) I have had much less problems since moving house and having a shed with a timber floor which simply sits on sleepers.
I don't know whether that is one of the problems. This had to be erected on a flat concrete, slab or similar surface. The base is around 1" thick with an airgap between the floor and slab underneath. Not a lot of space really.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dave walsh View Post
I can't recall anyone else that's used a plastic building but I could be wrong.

Dave W
Wasn't exactly my choice. The shed was originally purchased for tools and storage after the original wooden shed practically fell to bits after a two or three of years. Then the OTH wanted the nice warm spare room....

Quote:
Originally Posted by G6Tanuki View Post
If you're storing stuff 'outside' then you really need a combination of background-heat and active dehumidification.
Thank you. I have noted that point and will need to have a think about how to implement it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PsychMan View Post
What you COULD do, is store the test gear in sealable plastic boxes (really useful type), and stick silica packs in with them. I've done that with a few things and its worked for me
Another good idea noted. It seems there is no shortage of silica gel packs on eBay. I have some cheap plastic storage drawers, but they are hardly air or water tight. I might have to re-think that and even re-organise a bit so that more gear can be stored indoors. A bit less convenient to have to bring it out when needed, but better than having stuff ruined by damp.

If I could afford it, then I would probably build a replacement wooden shed.
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Old 8th Jan 2020, 9:47 pm   #20
The Philpott
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Default Re: Sheds, damp and test equipment

...As pointed out above, if you have a garage in a block there is always the neighbouring ones to worry about. In my previous place the run of guttering had sprung a leak at the neighbour's garage, and rather than renew it (really cheaply), he or she had drilled a hole at the base of the wall to allow the water on their floor to run through onto my floor- an inch of it on a bad day. Having rammed the hole full of my favourite hard mortar, i built a miniature coffer dam around it with a few bricks, so that when they drilled through the wall again the water stayed put. They then repaired the guttering, but it took a year for everything to -relatively- dry out.

Dave
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