BBC Radio 4 long wave reception problems etc. - Page 6 - UK Vintage Radio Repair and Restoration Discussion Forum

Mach One · 21st Jul 2014, 9:06 am

I agree with you, Aub...

Once again it has been bad for weeks. It's frustrating when the same fault regularly re-appears and there seems to be no-one on the inside who notices it.

I also looked for the threads concerning it and had the impression from one that it is no longer seen as something that we should be discussing here on the forum. The suggestion was given that we could discuss it on another radio forum, but I personally don't want to have to join that forum just to report the R4 sibilance on a regular basis.

I remember that there was someone who posted in one of these threads who had some involvement in the Droitwich transmitter and obviously could get the ball rolling themselves. Rather than keep badgering them every time it happens, and in order to stop the now regular postings on this subject can someone give us a good list of concrete steps to take to report this problem to the best person who can put it right?

It could even be a sticky...

threeseven · 21st Jul 2014, 9:15 am

Noticeable as we speak, on both sets I currently use every day, a Philips valve set and a Ferguson transistor set.

Station X · 21st Jul 2014, 10:03 am

This post gives a phone number on which faults can be reported:-

https://www.vintage-radio.net/forum/...23&postcount=7

Aub · 21st Jul 2014, 4:39 pm

Also, member Martin G7MRV has contacts.

Cheers

Aub

paulsherwin · 21st Jul 2014, 4:52 pm

I was listening in the car this afternoon, and it was truly dreadful, the worst R4LW quality I've ever heard.

Given the number of previous threads on this subject, it seems to be caused by a fault in the distribution circuit which has never been permanently fixed. I wish the various contracted companies involved would just stop vacillating and sort this out. Nobody benefits from this and the licence paying listener suffers.

I could organize a 256kb AAC feed from BH to Droitwich from scratch in a day using public services, off the shelf hardware and free open source software. And I'm not even a broadcast engineer. Of course there's an internet stream of the LW programming already there which could be used.

21st Jul 2014, 4:59 pm

Quote:

from scratch in a day

I assume that covers traveling time.

I can't give a waterfall picture now (see older threads on this subject) as I removed the old coax before the summer waiting for warm weather to make the new coax softer, forgot that SHMBOs garden will be in full bloom just when I want to run the new stuff.

paulsherwin · 21st Jul 2014, 5:09 pm

How about:

1. Buy internet radio (about £150).
2. Tune to R4LW stream.
3. Plug line out into transmitter patch panel.

I could certainly do that in a day including travel time from Oxford, though I'd need help with the patching arrangements onsite.

Nicklyons2 · 21st Jul 2014, 5:23 pm

Yes and note that this is whilst the Droitwich Transmitter has been under 'extensive maintenance', just think how good it's going to be when they've finished

The MF/LF networks of the BBC seem to be just becoming moribund; I listen to R5L from Droitwich 693KHz, which fades, because the Moorside Edge ( which I'm only about 15 miles from) 909KHz is so distorted. It's been like it for ages.

There's no excuse, although I've heard some 'good ones' in the past from BBC spokespersons - the Magic 828 transmitter is hi-fi in comparison.

Glowing Bits! · 21st Jul 2014, 5:46 pm

I had the shipping forecast on last night (before 1AM) tuned to Droitwich, sadly I paid no attention to the quality!

I will have another go tonight whilst paying attention to the quality.

Has anyone on here been hearing strange clicking sounds on 198KHZ? It happened a few nights back when the country experienced rather large storms, the clicks/pops were not as loud as the usual lightning noise heard through AM, I'd like to know what I was hearing, it has never been heard before.

colourking · 21st Jul 2014, 7:25 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by paulsherwin

I could certainly do that in a day including travel time from Oxford, though I'd need help with the patching arrangements onsite.

however it is fed it would have to be in synch (time wise) with the 2 co-channel Scottish transmitters.
Otherwise horrendous echos over a huge area especially at night

Analogue satellite would have been simple and ideal to feed all the R4 LW/MW transmitters with perfectly synched audio - if it still existed.

paulsherwin · 21st Jul 2014, 7:27 pm

You'll get strange clicks and pops when there are lots of thunderstorms about, that's just how LF AM radio works.

If you were listening to R4LW as it was this afternoon, you wouldn't need golden ears to hear the sibilance and distortion.

There have been a couple of posts about my suggestions for 'easy fixes'. These weren't serious proposals for permanent broadcast quality fixes, just an illustration that it isn't a major technical challenge to sort things out.

I don't think any of the networked AM transmitters are phase locked now, and haven't been for a long time. There is a big mush zone between Droitwich and Westerglen covering most of Cumbria and Northumberland and there are some MW infill transmitters to partially compensate.

Refugee · 21st Jul 2014, 8:15 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glowing Bits!

Has anyone on here been hearing strange clicking sounds on 198KHZ? It happened a few nights back when the country experienced rather large storms, the clicks/pops were not as loud as the usual lightning noise heard through AM, I'd like to know what I was hearing, it has never been heard before.

I have for some time suspected that someone in the studio is wearing "clankey" jewelery or something similar to that. Any gender could be doing it.

Junk Box Nick · 21st Jul 2014, 11:24 pm

Seems that the best thing to do is complain to the BBC.

To paraphrase the old saying: "Complain early and complain often."

If no one complains they'll assume (and perhaps hope?) that no one is listening to AM.

A few years ago when the transmission on LW became very distorted during a test match I emailed TMS and got a prompt response from someone in the 'back room'. This time I have received neither response or acknowledgement.

paulsherwin · 22nd Jul 2014, 12:37 am

The BBC is the only official point of contact regarding transmission faults, but unfortunately they haven't owned the distribution or transmission systems themselves for many years so can't actually do anything. If you are lucky your complaint will be seen by a competent transmission engineer and referred to the appropriate contracted company, but in most cases complaints seem to be dismissed as reception problems which are the fault of the complainer.

PaulM · 22nd Jul 2014, 9:26 am

It's bad this morning (Tuesday 22 July).

In engineering terms this should not be happening, so one can only conclude that it's deliberate.

Maybe I'm being cynical, but I still think that this might be a calculated act as part of a 'plan' to drive people away from AM. 'They' can then shut it all down and save a lot of expense with more profit for the transmission contractors and/or less cost to the BBC.

Perhaps the time has come for a strongly worded letter to the likes of the Times and the Telegraph pointing out the problem and a dark suggestion given as to why this is happening. Bad publicity is the only thing that works in this kind of situation. Perhaps a word with the BBC's own Watchdog expose programme might be in order!

The problem will be that any responses will be tech free - you won't hear the technical truth, just PR waffle. Lots of people have tried to be 'nice' about this but here we are again.

Getting radical as I get older, but you can 'argue with the Town Hall' if you play the game right.

Best regards,

Paul M

PaulE27 · 22nd Jul 2014, 10:08 am

Does anyone know if Droitwich is now producing splatter outside its 9 kHz channel? If it is, a complaint to Ofcom might be in order.

Paul

Martin G7MRV · 22nd Jul 2014, 10:16 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aub

Also, member Martin G7MRV has contacts.

Im not back in until tomorrow, but i'll give the bod on the appropriate desk a prod then,

The trouble is that the feeds are neither the BBCs nor ours (Arqiva), and the third parties responsible have their own ways of responding to our faults (Im being exceptionally polite there!)

As for the oft heard rumour that its a deliberate ploy to get people off of LW - If that were the case, we wouldnt have just spent nearly £3m on replacing the T antenna and refurbishing the masts at Droitwich.

paulsherwin · 22nd Jul 2014, 10:35 am

That's why the persistence of this fault is so bizarre. £3m is spent on aerial upgrades, lots of money must be being spent just paying the electricity bill, and yet the whole service is spoilt because somebody isn't doing the job they're being paid to do. I suppose it hasn't been addressed properly by the BBC (who should be going absolutely spare over this) because it doesn't actually take the service off air.

To be fair, I suspect that the BBC will be paying rather more attention at present, given the jump in LW listener numbers when the cricket is on and the corresponding increasing complaints and perhaps media attention. It must also be said that there will undoubtedly be a faction within the BBC and Ofcom who will see this as an opportunity to promote the 'better quality' of R5 Sports Extra on DAB.

G6Tanuki · 22nd Jul 2014, 11:00 am

Interestingly, there was an item on last evening's R4 "PM" program about 17:30ish, where someone had complained that the 'pips' sounded different to usual.

A person from the BBC was interviewed and admitted that there was something causing distortion, and that they were working on it.

PaulM · 22nd Jul 2014, 11:04 am

Quote:

The trouble is that the feeds are neither the BBCs nor ours (Arqiva), and the third parties responsible have their own ways of responding to our faults (Im being exceptionally polite there!)

As for the oft heard rumour that its a deliberate ploy to get people off of LW - If that were the case, we wouldnt have just spent nearly £3m on replacing the T antenna and refurbishing the masts at Droitwich.

I think that these two points are interesting - separate companies with a different agenda and/or take on the BBC's 'needs'? The spending of money by one doesn't mean that the whole operation is committed to the believed goal. It used to be said that you always knew when an RAF base was to be closed because all the windows would suddenly be repaired!

For all we know the aerial update is about selling off the LW facility to another broadcaster? We just don't know and probably never will without a time machine to the future or a fly on the wall of the corridors of power.

Cynical, moi? Oh yes, studying history formally teaches you that! Politics and commerce trash engineering every time. Sad, but true . . .

Best regards,

Paul M

21st Jul 2014, 9:06 am	#101
Mach One Heptode Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Shoreham-by-Sea, West Sussex, UK. Posts: 611	Re: R4 Longwave sibilance again. I agree with you, Aub... Once again it has been bad for weeks. It's frustrating when the same fault regularly re-appears and there seems to be no-one on the inside who notices it. I also looked for the threads concerning it and had the impression from one that it is no longer seen as something that we should be discussing here on the forum. The suggestion was given that we could discuss it on another radio forum, but I personally don't want to have to join that forum just to report the R4 sibilance on a regular basis. I remember that there was someone who posted in one of these threads who had some involvement in the Droitwich transmitter and obviously could get the ball rolling themselves. Rather than keep badgering them every time it happens, and in order to stop the now regular postings on this subject can someone give us a good list of concrete steps to take to report this problem to the best person who can put it right? It could even be a sticky...

21st Jul 2014, 9:15 am	#102
threeseven Octode Join Date: May 2010 Location: Worcestershire, UK. Posts: 1,880	Re: R4 Longwave sibilance again. Noticeable as we speak, on both sets I currently use every day, a Philips valve set and a Ferguson transistor set. __________________ BVWS member

21st Jul 2014, 10:03 am	#103
Station X Moderator Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Ipswich, Suffolk, IP4, UK. Posts: 21,287	Re: R4 Longwave sibilance again. This post gives a phone number on which faults can be reported:- https://www.vintage-radio.net/forum/...23&postcount=7 __________________ Graham. Forum Moderator Reach for your meter before you reach for your soldering iron.

21st Jul 2014, 4:39 pm	#104
Aub Nonode Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Nuneaton, Warwickshire, UK. Posts: 2,038	Re: R4 Longwave sibilance again. Also, member Martin G7MRV has contacts. Cheers Aub __________________ Life's a long song, but the tune ends too soon for us all.

21st Jul 2014, 4:52 pm	#105
paulsherwin Moderator Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Oxford, UK Posts: 27,936	Re: R4 Longwave sibilance again. I was listening in the car this afternoon, and it was truly dreadful, the worst R4LW quality I've ever heard. Given the number of previous threads on this subject, it seems to be caused by a fault in the distribution circuit which has never been permanently fixed. I wish the various contracted companies involved would just stop vacillating and sort this out. Nobody benefits from this and the licence paying listener suffers. I could organize a 256kb AAC feed from BH to Droitwich from scratch in a day using public services, off the shelf hardware and free open source software. And I'm not even a broadcast engineer. Of course there's an internet stream of the LW programming already there which could be used.

21st Jul 2014, 5:09 pm	#107
paulsherwin Moderator Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Oxford, UK Posts: 27,936	Re: R4 Longwave sibilance again. How about: 1. Buy internet radio (about £150). 2. Tune to R4LW stream. 3. Plug line out into transmitter patch panel. I could certainly do that in a day including travel time from Oxford, though I'd need help with the patching arrangements onsite.

21st Jul 2014, 5:23 pm	#108
Nicklyons2 Octode Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Barnsley, South Yorkshire, UK. Posts: 1,517	Re: R4 Longwave sibilance again. Yes and note that this is whilst the Droitwich Transmitter has been under 'extensive maintenance', just think how good it's going to be when they've finished The MF/LF networks of the BBC seem to be just becoming moribund; I listen to R5L from Droitwich 693KHz, which fades, because the Moorside Edge ( which I'm only about 15 miles from) 909KHz is so distorted. It's been like it for ages. There's no excuse, although I've heard some 'good ones' in the past from BBC spokespersons - the Magic 828 transmitter is hi-fi in comparison.

21st Jul 2014, 5:46 pm	#109
Glowing Bits! Octode Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: Wrexham, North Wales, UK. Posts: 1,457	Re: R4 Longwave sibilance again. I had the shipping forecast on last night (before 1AM) tuned to Droitwich, sadly I paid no attention to the quality! I will have another go tonight whilst paying attention to the quality. Has anyone on here been hearing strange clicking sounds on 198KHZ? It happened a few nights back when the country experienced rather large storms, the clicks/pops were not as loud as the usual lightning noise heard through AM, I'd like to know what I was hearing, it has never been heard before.

21st Jul 2014, 7:27 pm	#111
paulsherwin Moderator Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Oxford, UK Posts: 27,936	Re: R4 Longwave sibilance again. You'll get strange clicks and pops when there are lots of thunderstorms about, that's just how LF AM radio works. If you were listening to R4LW as it was this afternoon, you wouldn't need golden ears to hear the sibilance and distortion. There have been a couple of posts about my suggestions for 'easy fixes'. These weren't serious proposals for permanent broadcast quality fixes, just an illustration that it isn't a major technical challenge to sort things out. I don't think any of the networked AM transmitters are phase locked now, and haven't been for a long time. There is a big mush zone between Droitwich and Westerglen covering most of Cumbria and Northumberland and there are some MW infill transmitters to partially compensate.

21st Jul 2014, 11:24 pm	#113
Junk Box Nick Octode Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: West Midlands, UK. Posts: 1,571	Re: R4 Longwave sibilance again. Seems that the best thing to do is complain to the BBC. To paraphrase the old saying: "Complain early and complain often." If no one complains they'll assume (and perhaps hope?) that no one is listening to AM. A few years ago when the transmission on LW became very distorted during a test match I emailed TMS and got a prompt response from someone in the 'back room'. This time I have received neither response or acknowledgement.

22nd Jul 2014, 12:37 am	#114
paulsherwin Moderator Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Oxford, UK Posts: 27,936	Re: R4 Longwave sibilance again. The BBC is the only official point of contact regarding transmission faults, but unfortunately they haven't owned the distribution or transmission systems themselves for many years so can't actually do anything. If you are lucky your complaint will be seen by a competent transmission engineer and referred to the appropriate contracted company, but in most cases complaints seem to be dismissed as reception problems which are the fault of the complainer.

22nd Jul 2014, 9:26 am	#115
PaulM Hexode Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Near Lincoln, UK. Posts: 483	Re: R4 Longwave sibilance again. It's bad this morning (Tuesday 22 July). In engineering terms this should not be happening, so one can only conclude that it's deliberate. Maybe I'm being cynical, but I still think that this might be a calculated act as part of a 'plan' to drive people away from AM. 'They' can then shut it all down and save a lot of expense with more profit for the transmission contractors and/or less cost to the BBC. Perhaps the time has come for a strongly worded letter to the likes of the Times and the Telegraph pointing out the problem and a dark suggestion given as to why this is happening. Bad publicity is the only thing that works in this kind of situation. Perhaps a word with the BBC's own Watchdog expose programme might be in order! The problem will be that any responses will be tech free - you won't hear the technical truth, just PR waffle. Lots of people have tried to be 'nice' about this but here we are again. Getting radical as I get older, but you can 'argue with the Town Hall' if you play the game right. Best regards, Paul M

22nd Jul 2014, 10:08 am	#116
PaulE27 Pentode Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: London, UK. Posts: 222	Re: R4 Longwave sibilance again. Does anyone know if Droitwich is now producing splatter outside its 9 kHz channel? If it is, a complaint to Ofcom might be in order. Paul

22nd Jul 2014, 10:35 am	#118
paulsherwin Moderator Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Oxford, UK Posts: 27,936	Re: R4 Longwave sibilance again. That's why the persistence of this fault is so bizarre. £3m is spent on aerial upgrades, lots of money must be being spent just paying the electricity bill, and yet the whole service is spoilt because somebody isn't doing the job they're being paid to do. I suppose it hasn't been addressed properly by the BBC (who should be going absolutely spare over this) because it doesn't actually take the service off air. To be fair, I suspect that the BBC will be paying rather more attention at present, given the jump in LW listener numbers when the cricket is on and the corresponding increasing complaints and perhaps media attention. It must also be said that there will undoubtedly be a faction within the BBC and Ofcom who will see this as an opportunity to promote the 'better quality' of R5 Sports Extra on DAB.

22nd Jul 2014, 11:00 am	#119
G6Tanuki Dekatron Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: Wiltshire, UK. Posts: 13,996	Re: R4 Longwave sibilance again. Interestingly, there was an item on last evening's R4 "PM" program about 17:30ish, where someone had complained that the 'pips' sounded different to usual. A person from the BBC was interviewed and admitted that there was something causing distortion, and that they were working on it.