Identifying radiogram. Value?

[Brigham]

Could this be the elusive Baird Super Tele-Radiogram that we occasionally hear about, but never actually see?
It's certainly something special; I'd be inclined to keep it as it is until research has exhausted all possibilities.
Are the knobs still attached to controls? That might furnish valuable information.

[Paul_RK]

Its being a little, or a lot, out of the ordinary seems the one observation we can all agree on. I was prompted by all those knobs, plus the home-made back, to wonder whether it might have been the similarly elusive Scott-Taggart Supergram: but the files here haven't sufficiently recovered from our relocation yet to allow me readily to find an illustration of that.

Paul

[Techman]

The back of the 'gram' part exactly matches the back of the cupboard part, which seems to be original as just a cupboard/storage section, so not home-made. The one vent hole that's not got some sort of covering from the inside will be the one where the speaker wires came out of, but then this all goes out of the window when you ask yourself where the original mains lead would have been connected - perhaps it was the one open hole that had some sort of electrical connection plate originally fitted in it.

The felt in the lid is typical 'radiogram' and 'looks' original, which would throw out the mirror lid TV idea, but then the felt could have been retrofitted by a skilled user. The lamp wiring running on the outside of the felt up one side doesn't go with the quality of the rest of the unit, nether does the open lamp with bare terminals, but there may have been a cover that's fallen off.

Dynatron did make a large TV/gram unit with different level cabinet heights like the one shown, but the wood grain pattern and other aspects of the design is not typical of Dynatron.

It may not be of UK origin.

[Graham G3ZVT]

I would like to see exactly what is retaining those knobs.

[Techman]

Looking at the knob that's fallen off and now shown on the shelf of the cupboard unit and the hole it came from, it looks like they're no longer functional and have just been 'suck' in the original holes for decorative purposes, perhaps even jammed in with a bit of folded cardboard or something.

The modification would have had a head unit from something like a Stern amplifier unit in the slot next to the deck, which would have had all the functional controls on it.

[MurphyNut]

What a fascinating object and indeed very attractive, strong Art Deco features to it makes it 1930's surely.
The absence of a speaker aperture adds to its mystery.

[HamishBoxer]

Possibly a mystery we may never solve, still think modified side board.

[Station X]

The layout of the knobs must match something, but what?

[PaulR]

If it is a converted anything it has been very professionally done. Lining the lid with felt is difficult and the cutout for the round window is very well done. I was thinking "cocktail cabinet" but there are no doors on the front and it is rather tall to have had some sort of rise and fall mechanism for the contents. A sideboard would have had doors on the front.

I will watch the thread with interest.

[WessexWill]

Thanks for your thoughts. I spent a very hot weekend clearing out the house and didn’t spend more than about 10 mins trying to find any signs of identification on the item. The photos were taken in a bit of a hurry. I’ll be back next weekend so will do a bit more digging and take more photos/see how feasible removing the back is (I asked my Mum to take a few more photos based on your comments but they were just the same as the ones I took...). I’ve got a good 6 weeks or so before building works start so no rush to get rid at this time.

Will

[paulsherwin]

As you will have gathered, there's a possibility that this is something of great interest to collectors even in its completely gutted state. I would hang fire on selling it for as long as you can and wait for any more info to come in. It may mean the difference between £5 for a random wooden cabinet and £250 for a unique piece of electronics history.

[Techman]

Originally Posted by WessexWill

I’ll be back next weekend so will do a bit more digging and take more photos/see how feasible removing the back is

You may not need to remove the back if there's no other board below the record deck board that you removed. You can take a couple of photos straight down from the top of the innards with good lighting or the flash.

[Techman]

Originally Posted by HamishBoxer

Possibly a mystery we may never solve, still think modified side board.

I must admit that when I first looked at the pictures, I thought it looked like a low wardrobe that had been converted. I've actually got one that looks similar in design to this cabinet and they were made to go into houses where the bedroom ceiling followed the slope of the roof so far down before it met the top of the wall, making it impossible to stand a normal height wardrobe against that wall.

[GrimJosef]

Originally Posted by Paul_RK

... I was prompted by all those knobs, plus the home-made back, to wonder whether it might have been the similarly elusive Scott-Taggart Supergram: but the files here haven't sufficiently recovered from our relocation yet to allow me readily to find an illustration of that ...

The attached from Sept 34 Wireless Constructor, p193, available as a pdf from here https://worldradiohistory.com/Wireless_Constructor.htm

There are some nominal resemblances - a higher section with, in this case two, lower cupboards at the sides, a low 'skirt' at the bottom (could the OP's unit have had feet removed ?). But is the style really similar ? I'd have to leave that to someone more expert than me.

Cheers,

GJ

[dave walsh]

Hmn! Interesting This might well keep us all busy It's the right height for a Radiogram perhaps [measured against the chair height]. The holes at the rear seem much more for ventilation than anything else. This combined with having seen a chassis [at Golborne I think] with a round dial of the same sort of size and quite a large floor plan, would have me thinking possible Tuner/Amp with deck above and there seems to be clear evidence for a record player? A yellow dial cover, as in place, is not so unusual as I have radios circa 1940's where the plastic has yellowed. I'm not sure that 6 knobs for an up -market Radiogram is that excessive David [post 10*] but 3 or 4 is more usual-I agree. If it's a converted Wardrobe well I've never seen one with ventilation at the back but it could be I suppose The converted Mirror Lid TV is possibly feasible given the suggested that the cabinet may have had more than one modification over the years but seems unlikely. who knows at present?

Dave W

[WessexWill]

I don’t think there were feet but I’ll check at the weekend. Pics from inside courtesy of Mum...
Dimensions are 95cm (l) x 42 (w) x 103 (h... highest point).

[dave walsh]

I presume you will have obtained the maximum information via family sources Will. Sometimes people just haven't been asked even if they are still around
I'm interested that you are identifying with the area of Wessex dating back to the 9th Century. I'm researching that on another basis altogether.

As a J L Baird enthusiast I was interested in the reference to his legendary Super Tele Radiogram Brigham [p21*]. I found an alamy stock photo of the Baird Luxury Television Radiogram [125gns in 1937] on line. Is that the one you meant? Very stylish indeed but the wrong shape and size. Contributor The Smith Archive-photographed only a year ago it says [28/8/19].

Dave

[WessexWill]

There’s little family history relating to this. Bought by my Dad circa 1990 from Oxfam. My Dad was not from an electronic/radio/tv background (more the design/art background). In any case he’s not around to ask. He would store some poster tubes in the main compartment and kept a Sony midi hifi and a collection of cd’s in the side part.

Wessex because I feel out of my comfort zone if I stray further east than Southampton and further west than Lyme Regis...

[Radio Wrangler]

The standard of finish inside, says that whatever was below the deck level under the top lid was not visible to the owner/user. That leaves a large volume of space in someone's living room boxed in and inaccessible if it was an item of furniture.

I don't think it's a converted sideboard. As storage it would be too inefficient.

A radio wouldn't need that furniture lid. Most make do with glued-together cabinets with only a removable back.

I don't think that cabinet is home made. those curved corners and especially the veneer falling into the rounded edge of the big hole on the front is specialist work with specialist equipment. That said, it might have been a homer by someone with such a workshop.

THe back panel might be professionally made, if the numbers involved were small. Die-cut card backs are common on mass produced equipment simply because they are cheap in large quantities where the cost of making tooling gets spread across a great many sets. Big holes that fingers or even tiny hands could get in have always been a risk, so either things with nasty voltages on them were too far in, or the vent holes had cloth across them.

THe felt lined lid is very record-playery. if the felt really is original, it eliminates the mirror-lid TV theory.

For the front-viewing TV theory, where would the speaker be? Separate cabinet would split concentration of the viewer... you see things in one place, but sounds of it come from elsewhere. Why would it need the posh lid? It would be a place to put controls, but if so, then why all those controls on the front? This doesn't fit together as a jigsaw.

For the radiogram theory, The slot in the deck board for a tuning scale would not be unreasonable, the round porthole for the speaker? The problem is the porthole looks a bit small for the size of speakers used in up-market gear of that era.

Radio tuning scale in the porthole would also fit, but that leaves nowhere for a speaker which seems odd. THere is room in the main part to take a radiogram chassis and still have record storage space under it.

Some early equipment had two chassis, one the radio, the other the power supply. Sometimes a rather potent amplifier would be found on the same chassis as the power supply. In these early units it was common to use the current of the high voltage DC supply to the valves to energise an electromagnet in the days before speakers were built with permanent magnets. If the speaker was remote, this would mean high voltage connections as well as the audio having to trail to the speaker. People in those days were not as worried by such things as we are nowadays, but it ought to have been discouraging.

So no theory so far seems to fit the bill without significant inconsistencies.

It is a first-class mystery.

David

[Graham G3ZVT]

Post #36, first image.

There's a twisted flex with a 2 pin male connector dangling across the piano-hinge...