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Old 31st Aug 2007, 2:45 pm   #41
mhennessy
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Default Re: Bodge-o-tronic: Veroboard!

Hi All,

I love Veroboard, and there's no reason to regard its use as bodgery! With proper planning and care with the construction, it can look nearly as good as a PCB. Certainly good enough for one-offs at low frequency...

For planning, I have an A3 pad of graph paper with a 0.1" pitch - which is perfect because you can put real components on the page to see how they fit and interact with each other. I make effort to avoid wasted space on the one hand, but cramped areas on the other.

Of course, part of the "art" of Veroboard layouts is to minimise links and track cuts! When installing links, I use quick thick TCW (0.8mm, IIRC), and make the bends with pliars (offering up the wire to the drawing to get the right length). Most people install links by soldering one end, then pulling the wire taught through the other hole, but that doesn't give such good results. Making tight links with thick wire minimises the risks of the links being shoved into each other. I also apply similar attention to detail when placing the components. It doesn't take significantly more time with practice.

The limitations of Veroboard (capacitance and limited current capability) can be dealt with at the layout stage. Don't be afraid to use multiple tracks to share current, or "beef up" the underside of the track by soldering TCW to the tack. Solder alone doesn't really help - IIRC, copper is 6 times less conductive than copper. The stray capacitance can be much easier to deal with, but removing any unused copper can help. That said, back at uni I built a prototype function generator on Veroboard, and couldn't get the square-wave risetime below a few hundred nanoseconds (for some reason, that was important at the time). When we went the PCB version, the risetime was too fast to be measured with a 20MHz scope!

My website is full of Veroboard-based creations, along with a few PCB and point-to-point things. I would do more PCBs if I had the facilities at home, certainly PCBs allow you to optimise things like earthing systems (very important in audio), and obviously look a little more professional (although obviously, this depends as well. Some home-brew PCBs are pretty horrible). But in the meantime, Veroboard is mostly fine...

Incidentally, I'm still working through the stocks of Veryboard that I bought at LF Hannay some 15 years ago! But that's another story: https://www.vintage-radio.net/forum/...ad.php?t=19915

Best regards,

Mark
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Old 31st Aug 2007, 9:14 pm   #42
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Default Re: Bodge-o-tronic: Veroboard!

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Originally Posted by mhennessy View Post
When installing links, I use quick thick TCW (0.8mm, IIRC), and make the bends with pliars (offering up the wire to the drawing to get the right length). Most people install links by soldering one end, then pulling the wire taught through the other hole, but that doesn't give such good results. Making tight links with thick wire minimises the risks of the links being shoved into each other. I also apply similar attention to detail when placing the components. It doesn't take significantly more time with practice.
Hello Mark,

I do something similar. I have one of those little plastic boxes with a 18 or so subdivisions, filled with pre-made links: 0.1", 0.2", 0.3" and so on.

I make up the links from tinned copper wire, using a small chunk of Veroboard cut to the right size, which is stored in the same compartment as the links of the same size. When I run out of a certain length, it takes just a few minutes to replenish my stocks. No tools are required: an inch or two of straight wire is placed on the bench, the "template" held firmly on top, then the two free ends are bent up at right angles to the bench.

The results are really neat, almost as good as yours (which are, frankly, superb)

I agree that you can get an almost "PCB quality" appearance, though it's trickier to actually build.

BTW, my thoughts when I was given my very first piece of Veroboard as a child was how incredibly close the holes and tracks were... I'd only seen it in kids' books until then, and had imagined that the whole thing was much bigger

Nick.
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Old 31st Aug 2007, 10:19 pm   #43
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Default Re: Bodge-o-tronic: Veroboard!

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Originally Posted by mhennessy View Post
Hi All,

I love Veroboard, and there's no reason to regard its use as bodgery! With proper planning and care with the construction, it can look nearly as good as a PCB. Certainly good enough for one-offs at low frequency...Mark
I agree that it's possible to make some pretty professional stuff using Veroboard - I've done several projects at work using nothing more than Veroboard and pencil/graph paper for design.

I've had a good look round your web site and found it really interesting. I've already rigged up a salvaged isolating transformer in a similar way to yours, and I fancy having a go at building the active speaker too.

Can I be a bit cheeky and ask if it would be possible to scan the paper layouts for your veroboard projects and add them to the web site too?

Dave
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Old 31st Aug 2007, 10:47 pm   #44
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Default Re: Bodge-o-tronic: Veroboard!

Long time since I made anything on Veroboard.
I used to take a piece to work and put it on the photocopier then print out a lot of sheets of paper with the image. The image showed through on the other side and thus it was possible to draw the components etc on both sides and see if they would fit..
Worked for me.. Very good for one off circuits and I still have some bits knocking about somewhere..
Peter W..........Reelguy
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Old 1st Sep 2007, 10:31 am   #45
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Default Re: Bodge-o-tronic: Veroboard!

Built this Medium Wave transmitter yesterday on vero board. I use it regularly

Tony
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Old 1st Sep 2007, 3:59 pm   #46
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Default Re: Bodge-o-tronic: Veroboard!

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Originally Posted by mhennessy View Post
I love Veroboard, and there's no reason to regard its use as bodgery! With proper planning and care with the construction, it can look nearly as good as a PCB. Certainly good enough for one-offs at low frequency...
The examples in your photos are excellent, Mark. They certainly show the results of the proper planning you do, and the care taken in the actual construction.
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Old 1st Sep 2007, 10:58 pm   #47
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Thumbs up Re: Bodge-o-tronic: Veroboard!

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Why not use the Vero spot face cutter or hold the drill in some kind of handle or chuck? I've used both methods and my fingers are fine.
Ditto.
I've been using a Vero spot face cutter for years - and occasionally a 3.5 mm. drill bit in a file handle - without any trouble at all. Either way, just closely inspect the cuts afterwards to make sure that there are no hair-thin copper links from the cuts to adjacent tracks

I've never had problems with my fingers during or after this work.

Al / Skywave.
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Old 2nd Sep 2007, 5:49 pm   #48
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Default Re: Bodge-o-tronic: Veroboard!

Hi Gents, Inspect your veroboard closely, I recently had some from a major disty the had the holes offset from the track centre by about 0.2mm, it produced some strange effects when using a spotface cutter.

Secondly, If you are building RF circuits it pays to be tidy and not leave tracks "in the air" as the additional capacitance can play havoc with the tuning!

Ed
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Old 3rd Sep 2007, 9:21 am   #49
Skywave
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Thumbs up Re: Bodge-o-tronic: Veroboard!

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The examples in your photos are excellent, Mark. They certainly show the results of the proper planning you do, and the care taken in the actual construction.
Indeed. The neatest results I've ever seen on Veroboard!
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Old 3rd Sep 2007, 3:11 pm   #50
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Default Re: Bodge-o-tronic: Veroboard!

Thanks for all the compliments! Some excellent suggestions also.

Nick, I'd thought about making up some sort of jig for preforming the links (and other components too), but haven't got around to it yet. I reckon that a scrap of fibreglass FR4 Veroboard would be a more robust alternative to standard Veroboard. In fact, it's much nicer generally than Veroboard, but a lot more expensive!

Dave, I'd considered scanning the layouts, but haven't got around to trying it. Various reasons/excuses: lack of time, dubious quality because of the amount of rubbing out and redrawing, etc. The main reason is that I've never really expected anyone to try building any of my stuff! But, since you've asked, I'll try my best. Starting with the active speaker...

Good point about track cutting - the stuff I bought from LF Hannays was cheap because the holes were punched slightly off-centre. I use a drill rather than a spot-face cutter because the latter go blunt quite quickly IME. Recently, I've got lazy and started using a cordless drill to turn the bit! But yes, inspect carefully afterwards; if necessary, those £3 7x eyepiece magnifiers are quite good. I also scrape away all the flux, which makes inspection easier. Another tip - you can "peel" away large sections of track using the soldering iron to melt the glue...

Tony, your transmitter looks very neat. Almost all of the resistors are pointing the same way

Anyone remember 0.15" Veroboard? Great for beginners, and better current c

Skywave, you're local to me - hope you don't live too near to the river! In fact, I've noticed quite a few people on the forum based in this area. Small world

Mark
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Old 3rd Sep 2007, 4:52 pm   #51
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Default Re: Bodge-o-tronic: Veroboard!

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Originally Posted by mhennessy View Post
Dave, I'd considered scanning the layouts, but haven't got around to trying it. Various reasons/excuses: lack of time, dubious quality because of the amount of rubbing out and redrawing, etc. The main reason is that I've never really expected anyone to try building any of my stuff! But, since you've asked, I'll try my best. Starting with the active speaker...
Thanks Mark, that would be great.

I've been managing with one of those Velleman signal tracer/amplifier kits, built into a plastic box with a fairly small speaker, for quite a while now. After spending the last couple of weeks repairing CD players, I've decided I need something better in the way of a test amplifier, and I think your active speaker would be just the job.

I have considered drawing up a stripboard layout from scratch, and then considered trying to copy your layout from what can be seen in the photos (which is probably even harder to do!) but never got round to doing either, because there's too much work to do and too little time to do it...

I look forward to seeing the layout, if you manage to make it look presentable enough for the viewing public
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Old 4th Sep 2007, 10:04 am   #52
mhennessy
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I look forward to seeing the layout, if you manage to make it look presentable enough for the viewing public
Hi Dave,

Last night I managed to find both the sketch and the scanner! It came out better than I expected, onced I'd tweaked the contrast to make the pencil darker. I even managed to update the webpage: http://www.mhennessy.f9.co.uk/activespeaker/index.htm

I wrote up some thoughts and advice (not proof-read as it was late!) which should help. Sorry about the lack of labels, etc, but you should be able to work through it logically with the (updated) schematic. I took the unit apart last night and took some more pictures of the board (moving the smoothing caps out of the way), which should help if you get stuck...

Good luck, and let us know how you get on,

Mark
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Old 4th Sep 2007, 10:27 pm   #53
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Default Re: Bodge-o-tronic: Veroboard!

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Hi Dave,

Last night I managed to find both the sketch and the scanner!
Mark
Thanks Mark, I'm definitely going to have a go at building the active speaker, now I have a lot more information to go on!

It's not going to happen straight away as I'm short of a few of the components at the moment, and construction of the Jaycar headphone amplifier and power supply kits (which have just arrived from Australia!) is top of the to-do list

Just out of interest, your method of drawing layouts is quite a bit different to mine. I sometimes use graph paper but mainly use special sheets of what I call 'stripboard paper', which basically has long rows of gray strips with holes in them. They were originally printed out using a dot-matrix printer (so I could vary the darkness of the strips by adjusting the head gap) but I now print one sheet using a laser printer, then photocopy it and adjust the exposure on the copier to vary the darkness. The program that I use to print them was written by me using Turbo Pascal, and still works pretty well on my old Win 98 boxes.

As it's quite difficult to explain what these sheets look like, I'll post up some scans of the layout sheets and photos of the completed boards, for comparison, when I get the chance

Dave
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Old 5th Sep 2007, 7:43 am   #54
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Default Re: Bodge-o-tronic: Veroboard!

I use something similar for layout sheets, Dave, using a MS Word table with borders.
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Old 8th Oct 2007, 7:15 pm   #55
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Default Re: Bodge-o-tronic: Veroboard!

I find an essential bit of equipment when using veroboard these days is a X10 magnifier which I loop around my neck on a piece of string. (I heard that!) Without it I would never find the inevitable track shorts I make with these ageing eyes (Short break for sympathetic noises from my readers).
Jim
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Old 31st Oct 2007, 7:41 pm   #56
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Default Re: Bodge-o-tronic: Veroboard!

It does not have to be complicated in order to be useful.
Here is my HT supply that I use for battery portables.
Consumption measures about 260ma and on soak test the Ni-MH shown lasted about 10hrs.
Using 3 instead of 4 converters is suitable for the smaller sets like the P20B.
With no load there is a drain of about 95ma but on/off switching can normally be arranged by a simple mod to the set.
Mick
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Old 31st Oct 2007, 8:29 pm   #57
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Default Re: Bodge-o-tronic: Veroboard!

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Originally Posted by KB-KR20 View Post
It does not have to be complicated in order to be useful.
Here is my HT supply that I use for battery portables.
Consumption measures about 260ma and on soak test the Ni-MH shown lasted about 10hrs.
Using 3 instead of 4 converters is suitable for the smaller sets like the P20B.
With no load there is a drain of about 95ma but on/off switching can normally be arranged by a simple mod to the set.
Mick
Hi,
Ingenious,I would like to make such a convertor for my battery sets,where do you get the chips from and what filtering is needed.
Ray
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Old 31st Oct 2007, 8:37 pm   #58
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Default Re: Bodge-o-tronic: Veroboard!

I like your strain-relief method, Mick I do the same, but it doesn't seem commonplace.
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Old 31st Oct 2007, 11:06 pm   #59
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Default Re: Bodge-o-tronic: Veroboard!

I built my first standards converter on veroboard, that was 22 years ago.
It is still use by another forum member.

DFWB.
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Old 1st Nov 2007, 12:52 am   #60
Al (astral highway)
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Default Re: Bodge-o-tronic: Veroboard!

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I like your strain-relief method, Mick I do the same, but it doesn't seem commonplace.
yes,snap! I do that, too
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