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Old 20th May 2022, 12:32 pm   #1
PsychMan
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Default Bentima Synchronous Chiming Mantel Clock

Hi,

I have a nice little Bentima mantel clock, which Im guessing is late 40s - mid 50s.

Its an interesting one as it has westminster chimes, which seems uncommon with synchronous clocks.

There are 2 "gear races", if that is the correct term?, which control whether the strike or chime trains are driven by the motor. When I bought it, initially the strike would run indefinitely, and sure enough this was due to dried up lubrication. Some experimental "freeing" with light oils proved that.

Anyway, I've dismantled the movement and cleaned ahead of re oiling it properly. I have some experience with spring driven clocks, but I wonder if anyone has any views on lubrication for this? Specifically the "gear races", and the motor bearings?

The gear races had a black substance, which i'm assuming could have been a graphite grease?

The motor bearings I believe are sintered, but is there any way to tell?

Hopefully somebody here might have experience of such a movement.

Ive attached some pictures a quick video showing the movement running, if anyone is interested

https://youtube.com/shorts/Io8hEX_xBjE?feature=share

Best wishes
Adam
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Old 20th May 2022, 12:33 pm   #2
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Default Re: Bentima Synchronous Chiming Mantel Clock

Few more pics
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Old 20th May 2022, 1:05 pm   #3
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Default Re: Bentima Synchronous Chiming Mantel Clock

Nice!

This Perivale movement was the last British-Made chiming electric movement to be made, I think, and it's said to be rather hard to get going reliably according to Peter Wooton's books.

I like the unusual seconds display disc, reminiscent of the very earliest Smith/SEC electric movements from the first half of the 1930s.

I have one somewhere but haven't done anything with it yet.

What do you mean by "gear race"?

Don't overlook the fact that just because a clock has a particular type of lubricant at various points, it doesn't necessarily mean that it's meant to be like that! I see many clocks which look like they've been lubricated by a car mechanic using whatever they had to hand in the garage.

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Old 20th May 2022, 2:21 pm   #4
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Default Re: Bentima Synchronous Chiming Mantel Clock

Interesting Nick, I shall have to get hold of some of these books.

The pieces I call "gear races" (which im sure is a clumsy and incorrect term!) are in the attached picture.

Good point on lubrication, this had plenty of oil and grease everywhere, so its been well got at it before.

The movement has screwdriver scars on various screw heads, and a grub screw with a broken head. I had to use a gas torch on the other end to remove the pressed fitting and separate the plates properly.

The chime rods were also....knackered to be honest! One of them promptly fell off, and the others had that "dead" sound, which means they're falling off pretty soon. They were of a slightly less common length, quite long compared to most, so they were in a lower key. I managed to find a similar block complete with rods of the right length, and have transplanted them into the original block.

There was also one chime hammer missing, which I'm replacing with one I have spare.

The few of this (and the similarish temco movements) I've seen on ebay, all show signs of tinkering and come complete with faults, so I imagine they could be a pain to get working properly. They often say "runs, but jams when chiming".

I wonder if the problem with these is that they're too clock like for electrically minded folks, yet too electrical for many clock folks !
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Old 20th May 2022, 2:30 pm   #5
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Default Re: Bentima Synchronous Chiming Mantel Clock

Well, that may indeed be the correct term, I suppose. This is a very unusual thing to find in a clock! Possibly "bevel gears" but don't quote me on that.

Your point about electrical vs. mechanical is probably very true. Most clock people don't want to get involved with electric movements, and many clock enthusiasts don't seem to see them as "real" clocks, so many have lain unrepaired for decades or have been "serviced" by well-meaning amatuers.

I've not repaired any electric chiming clocks yet, but have done loads of electric strikers and have always found them to be slightly easier to fix than their equivalent spring-driven counterparts. And they usually tell the right time, all the time, which is more than can be said about cheap C20th spring-driven clocks. The clock that all our family turn to for the correct time in the family dining room /playroom is a late 1930s Genalex striking clock with a SEC electric movement.
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Old 20th May 2022, 2:36 pm   #6
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Default Re: Bentima Synchronous Chiming Mantel Clock

Hi,
They're an interesting movement - the usual Perivale was a better one and was continued up till the late 1950's.
Apart from the sintered rotor bearings, the only lubricant should be heavy clock oil on all pivots, but none on wheel teeth. A slight smear on all levers where they contact various parts.

Chime rods break very easily!
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Old 20th May 2022, 4:03 pm   #7
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Default Re: Bentima Synchronous Chiming Mantel Clock

Thanks Mike, I've ordered some turret clock oil.

I think also those gear races as I call them, would benefit more from thicker oil than grease, would you agree? Im thinking between the inside shaft and the outer sleeve part.

There are also some plastic gears, which I assume should be greased to protect them?
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Old 20th May 2022, 5:55 pm   #8
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Default Re: Bentima Synchronous Chiming Mantel Clock

Hi,
If you mean the parts where the inner and outer sleeves work against each other, oil rather than grease, but no lubricant on any of the plastic parts.
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Old 20th May 2022, 11:59 pm   #9
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Default Re: Bentima Synchronous Chiming Mantel Clock

Quote:
Originally Posted by PsychMan View Post
Interesting Nick, I shall have to get hold of some of these books.

The pieces I call "gear races" (which im sure is a clumsy and incorrect term!) are in the attached picture.

Good point on lubrication, this had plenty of oil and grease everywhere, so its been well got at it before.

The movement has screwdriver scars on various screw heads, and a grub screw with a broken head. I had to use a gas torch on the other end to remove the pressed fitting and separate the plates properly.

The chime rods were also....knackered to be honest! One of them promptly fell off, and the others had that "dead" sound, which means they're falling off pretty soon. They were of a slightly less common length, quite long compared to most, so they were in a lower key. I managed to find a similar block complete with rods of the right length, and have transplanted them into the original block.

There was also one chime hammer missing, which I'm replacing with one I have spare.

The few of this (and the similarish temco movements) I've seen on ebay, all show signs of tinkering and come complete with faults, so I imagine they could be a pain to get working properly. They often say "runs, but jams when chiming".

I wonder if the problem with these is that they're too clock like for electrically minded folks, yet too electrical for many clock folks !

Those "gear races" look very much like differential gears to me.
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Old 21st May 2022, 8:44 am   #10
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Default Re: Bentima Synchronous Chiming Mantel Clock

PsychMan - The correct term for "gear race" would be "wheel train" in clock making parlance.
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Old 17th Jun 2022, 1:14 pm   #11
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Default Re: Bentima Synchronous Chiming Mantel Clock

It’s been a bit of a disappointment this clock. I can get the movement running and chiming correctly, though I can see why it’s been described as difficult to get working reliably.

The problem I can’t do much about is the motor noise, which is excessive. It’s occurring between the first gear and the motor itself. Silicone grease stops it, but quickly migrates from the gear teeth to the sides and the noise returns. I’ve tried a few types of silicone grease, and it’s much the same.

Looking at the motor shaft, it’s clearly slightly bent and isn’t rotating perfectly. Perhaps pushing the grease away. Unfortunately I cannot work out how to remove the the motor shaft as there is the rotor on one side, and the brass wheel that drives the mechanism on the other, ie with the bearing in the middle. It does look like someone has tried before. The wheel being brass and possibly pressed on I did try heat from a gas torch and some prying, which only caused the shaft to start bending even more . Straightening this piece in situ to any degree of accuracy is not possible. If I could remove it, perhaps I could try something.

What makes this clock a real pain to work on is the way the movement is attached to the case, and the design requiring you to build a jig to test it on. The screws are attached via the front plates, which no path via a screwdriver when it’s installed. So it’s either a case of loosening the bottom bolts, and moving the movement on its spring mountings to reveal just enough space to cram a narrow screw driver in, Or remove the thin clock face which is pinned to the case and unscrew the spring fittings from under that. So far I’ve been doing the former. I’ve had the plates apart several times looking at this and patience is running very thin, so I may just leave it in its noisy state and come back to it in the future
When I can bear it!
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Old 17th Jun 2022, 1:23 pm   #12
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Default Re: Bentima Synchronous Chiming Mantel Clock

Sorry to hear that, Adam. Maybe a good practice piece rather than a clock for everyday use.

As I said, I've heard negative things about this particular movement before, so your experience may not be unusual.

Get yourself an earlier synchronous chimer and see how you get on. The Smiths postwar movement seems to be simple and durable.

The pre-war Smiths one was bought in from Garrard, and is rather complex (with two mini spring barrels which need "priming" with a special key), but looks like it was built to last.
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Old 17th Jun 2022, 2:16 pm   #13
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Default Re: Bentima Synchronous Chiming Mantel Clock

The later Smiths chimer was a good one as well - this lasted until the 1950's.

There's one on eBay for "Spares or repair" - it's the one with the underslung hammers. We've had one of these for years running.

I think it's the one that Nick mentioned.
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Old 17th Jun 2022, 2:27 pm   #14
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Default Re: Bentima Synchronous Chiming Mantel Clock

Yes, I have a feeling this wasnt the best regarded movement going! . I've dismantled and re-assembled several mechanical chiming clocks, serviced mainsprings etc. All of which were much more straight forward than this and ran flawlessly!

In addition to what I've already said, there are other frustrations with this. Unlike most clocks, many pieces are attached via grub screws where they could have been pressed on (Some of which are well chewed up, or the heads simply broken). This means upon re-assembly you have more adjusting to do, as the movement depends on the very specific alignment of these parts.

The places where traditionally you'd have a tapered pin to retain a washer, you have a bit of wire that's bent each end to hold it in place. And of course they all happen to break upon removal and then need to be made up with the right gauge of wire.

The way its mounted in the case, and the slightly oddball design makes me wonder whether they put much effort into this one at all, or whether they made it out of whatever was to hand... Though in fairness did they anticipate folks like us fetling them 70+ years later? Probably not !

Adam
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Old 17th Jun 2022, 2:29 pm   #15
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Default Re: Bentima Synchronous Chiming Mantel Clock

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Originally Posted by Mike Phelan View Post
The later Smiths chimer was a good one as well - this lasted until the 1950's.

There's one on eBay for "Spares or repair" - it's the one with the underslung hammers. We've had one of these for years running.

I think it's the one that Nick mentioned.
That's Interesting Mike. I did last night buy a Temco chiming movement that looks very similar to that smiths one. Im interested how it works in comparison
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Old 17th Jun 2022, 2:37 pm   #16
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Default Re: Bentima Synchronous Chiming Mantel Clock

Like this one (pic from Google)?
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Old 17th Jun 2022, 2:42 pm   #17
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Default Re: Bentima Synchronous Chiming Mantel Clock

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The places where traditionally you'd have a tapered pin to retain a washer, you have a bit of wire that's bent each end to hold it in place. And of course they all happen to break upon removal and then need to be made up with the right gauge of wire.
I don't mind those, personally. A fresh 1/2" length of brass wire twisted on with some long-nose pliers and the job's done. They can look really neat with practice.
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Old 17th Jun 2022, 3:18 pm   #18
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Default Re: Bentima Synchronous Chiming Mantel Clock

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Like this one (pic from Google)?
Yep that's the one.
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Old 17th Jun 2022, 3:21 pm   #19
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Default Re: Bentima Synchronous Chiming Mantel Clock

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Like this one (pic from Google)?
No, but I've got one of those somewhere, Nick, I think it originated from Ferranti?
Same motor but larger plates and a normal rack + count wheel with jockey wheels to engage the chime and strike trains.

For the bent wires - usual on many Smiths - I ise a bit of wire from a wire brush!
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Old 19th Jun 2022, 10:46 am   #20
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Default Re: Bentima Synchronous Chiming Mantel Clock

A few weeks ago I acquired my first clock having a Smiths chiming movement. Les Pook's book says it is the 259 movement (helpfully 259 is also stamped on it) and was used from 1936.

Les mentions three Smiths chiming movements: 'Type 1' 1933-39, 'Model 259' 1936- , and 'Westminster' 1942-56

I'll attach a pic. It runs well although the gong timing sounds slightly out during chiming. I'm looking forward to dismantling it for a clean and investigation but my clock workshop is out of action at the moment while I do some work downstairs.
-Steven
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