Feeding a 1951 US Philco TV ?? - UK Vintage Radio Repair and Restoration Discussion Forum

lloydwells · 26th May 2022, 7:25 pm

I've had for a while a C1951 American Philco TV lurking in the one day pile and now I quite fancy having a go at it the question is what do I feed it with in terms of signal ??

patrickgnl · 26th May 2022, 8:49 pm

Presumably if its a US set then a system ‘M’ 525 line 30 frame signal. It’s fiddly stuff….

You will need a signal source, eg a DVD player, some can be set to output M-NTSC, or a DVB-T2 box, some of the cheapo Chinese ones can also output M-NTSC as well as PAL. (Made presumably to be compatible with Columbia which uses DVB-T2 and previously NTSC).

You will also need a modulator, either multistandard VCR that has an M tuner, or a freestanding modulator. Just check the signal standard is switchable to M and can use VHF as your TV is likely to be VHF only.

I have done it.. the attached is a UK Freeview picture on a USA Sony TV..

Good luck!

Patrick
Ps don’t forget a voltage converter !

simpsons · 27th May 2022, 9:36 am

It would seem that both PAL to NTSC converters from eBay and a NTSC RF modulator from AliExpress are available for around the price of 2/3 pints of beer.

Using them will of course will take away the fun of making/modifying something yourself or defeating regions on a DVD player but would enable the playback of most sources to the US Standard as a "plug and play."

Chris

emeritus · 27th May 2022, 12:49 pm

My Icecrypt T5000 STB has NTSC as one if its modulator output options, but the modulator is UHF only. The manual is silent as to the variety of NTSC, only advising you not to change the setting in that menu, and to ring customer services if you do and can't get it to work afterwards!

patrickgnl · 27th May 2022, 9:05 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by emeritus

My Icecrypt T5000 STB has NTSC as one if its modulator output options, but the modulator is UHF only. The manual is silent as to the variety of NTSC, only advising you not to change the setting in that menu, and to ring customer services if you do and can't get it to work afterwards!

I have the same box, but I don’t think its setup properly. I have tested the output and it doesn't appear to be either NTSC 3.58 or 4.43. Heaven knows what it is, in fact on mine it doesn't seem to do anything at all.

Patrick

simpsons · 28th May 2022, 9:37 am

I've looked at the user guide for the Freeview Receiver Icecrypt T5000 STB and whilst ntsc/pal automatic conversion is stated, the manual doesn't say that this is available at RF. This doesn't surprise me as whilst via the scart input many colour TV's would reproduce 4.43 modified NTSC and some 3.45, this would not be possible as a RF input for obvious reasons.

I wonder if the NTSC/PAL conversion is a legacy from the satellite receivers they make for the NTSC world which also had various versions to suit the market? I'm thinking here of PAL N and PAL M. I say this because Secam is not mentioned.

The user guide I have doesn't include screen shots of the RF out or TV Systems the box can output and given most will be under software control, anything is possible. Who knows!

Of course none of this helps answer the original question but does illustrate that on seeing NTSC it does make one wonder "what do they mean."

Chris

patrickgnl · 28th May 2022, 5:11 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by simpsons

I've looked at the user guide for the Freeview Receiver Icecrypt T5000 STB and whilst ntsc/pal automatic conversion is stated, the manual doesn't say that this is available at RF. This doesn't surprise me as whilst via the scart input many colour TV's would reproduce 4.43 modified NTSC and some 3.45, this would not be possible as a RF input for obvious reasons.

I wonder if the NTSC/PAL conversion is a legacy from the satellite receivers they make for the NTSC world which also had various versions to suit the market? I'm thinking here of PAL N and PAL M. I say this because Secam is not mentioned.

The user guide I have doesn't include screen shots of the RF out or TV Systems the box can output and given most will be under software control, anything is possible. Who knows!

Of course none of this helps answer the original question but does illustrate that on seeing NTSC it does make one wonder "what do they mean."

Chris

Indeed, but regarding your legacy question, I mention Colombia above but there is another country that was NTSC 525/30 which switched to DVB-T, namely Taiwan, so maybe it was made for local and European use. Who knows.

Obviously if the Uk ever completely switches to DVB-T2 it will be academic anyway.

Patrick

emeritus · 28th May 2022, 7:36 pm

I did establish that (one of) the Icecrypt's European PAL RF output options worked on the tri-standard ( UK PAL, European PAL and SECAM) Schneider TV I inherited from a deceased relative who had lived in France.

Edit: just checked the settings menu on the SCART-less TV it is used with. Currently set to PAL-I, options PAL-BG & PAL-DK produce (as expected) a colour picture but no sound, while the NTSC setting produces what seems to be an unlocked, unstable monochrome raster with no sign of an image or sound.

hamid_1 · 29th May 2022, 2:27 am

If you can't find anything that produces NTSC signals, you can feed a PAL signal into your American TV. It will work in black and white. You must use an American system (NTSC-M) RF modulator otherwise you'll get no sound. You may need to adjust the vertical hold control on your TV. Also the picture may look stretched due to the different number of lines. Adjusting the height control will help, but it's best to use a true NTSC signal if possible. Luckily this is quite easy these days.

Many DVD players and a small number of digital TV boxes sold in the UK can be switched to NTSC. However there is an easy way to obtain NTSC video from any modern device with HDMI out. You can buy HDMI2AV converter box for less than £10. These have a switch to select PAL or NTSC analogue video out from your HDMI source, such as a DVD/blu-ray player, digital TV box or PC. You'll still need an American RF modulator as well as the HDMI2AV converter.

I've seen an all-in-one HDMI to RF converter box offered for sale at a reasonable price: https://www.amazon.co.uk/HDMI-Coaxia.../dp/B089NZWC64
It claims to support NTSC-M (the American analogue TV system) so in theory it should work for you. Simply connect an aerial lead from the box to your TV and tune it in - no separate modulator required.

26th May 2022, 7:25 pm	#1
lloydwells Heptode Join Date: Aug 2016 Location: Dumfries, Scotland, UK. Posts: 550	Feeding a 1951 US Philco TV ?? I've had for a while a C1951 American Philco TV lurking in the one day pile and now I quite fancy having a go at it the question is what do I feed it with in terms of signal ??

26th May 2022, 8:49 pm	#2
patrickgnl Pentode Join Date: Jun 2016 Location: Stourbridge, West Midlands, UK. Posts: 115	Re: Feeding a 1951 US Philco TV ?? Presumably if its a US set then a system ‘M’ 525 line 30 frame signal. It’s fiddly stuff…. You will need a signal source, eg a DVD player, some can be set to output M-NTSC, or a DVB-T2 box, some of the cheapo Chinese ones can also output M-NTSC as well as PAL. (Made presumably to be compatible with Columbia which uses DVB-T2 and previously NTSC). You will also need a modulator, either multistandard VCR that has an M tuner, or a freestanding modulator. Just check the signal standard is switchable to M and can use VHF as your TV is likely to be VHF only. I have done it.. the attached is a UK Freeview picture on a USA Sony TV.. Good luck! Patrick Ps don’t forget a voltage converter ! Attached Thumbnails Last edited by patrickgnl; 26th May 2022 at 9:00 pm.

27th May 2022, 9:36 am	#3
simpsons Octode Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Harrow, London, UK. Posts: 1,493	Re: Feeding a 1951 US Philco TV ?? It would seem that both PAL to NTSC converters from eBay and a NTSC RF modulator from AliExpress are available for around the price of 2/3 pints of beer. Using them will of course will take away the fun of making/modifying something yourself or defeating regions on a DVD player but would enable the playback of most sources to the US Standard as a "plug and play." Chris

27th May 2022, 12:49 pm	#4
emeritus Dekatron Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Brentwood, Essex, UK. Posts: 5,349	Re: Feeding a 1951 US Philco TV ?? My Icecrypt T5000 STB has NTSC as one if its modulator output options, but the modulator is UHF only. The manual is silent as to the variety of NTSC, only advising you not to change the setting in that menu, and to ring customer services if you do and can't get it to work afterwards!

28th May 2022, 9:37 am	#6
simpsons Octode Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Harrow, London, UK. Posts: 1,493	Re: Feeding a 1951 US Philco TV ?? I've looked at the user guide for the Freeview Receiver Icecrypt T5000 STB and whilst ntsc/pal automatic conversion is stated, the manual doesn't say that this is available at RF. This doesn't surprise me as whilst via the scart input many colour TV's would reproduce 4.43 modified NTSC and some 3.45, this would not be possible as a RF input for obvious reasons. I wonder if the NTSC/PAL conversion is a legacy from the satellite receivers they make for the NTSC world which also had various versions to suit the market? I'm thinking here of PAL N and PAL M. I say this because Secam is not mentioned. The user guide I have doesn't include screen shots of the RF out or TV Systems the box can output and given most will be under software control, anything is possible. Who knows! Of course none of this helps answer the original question but does illustrate that on seeing NTSC it does make one wonder "what do they mean." Chris

28th May 2022, 7:36 pm	#8
emeritus Dekatron Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Brentwood, Essex, UK. Posts: 5,349	Re: Feeding a 1951 US Philco TV ?? I did establish that (one of) the Icecrypt's European PAL RF output options worked on the tri-standard ( UK PAL, European PAL and SECAM) Schneider TV I inherited from a deceased relative who had lived in France. Edit: just checked the settings menu on the SCART-less TV it is used with. Currently set to PAL-I, options PAL-BG & PAL-DK produce (as expected) a colour picture but no sound, while the NTSC setting produces what seems to be an unlocked, unstable monochrome raster with no sign of an image or sound. Last edited by emeritus; 28th May 2022 at 7:50 pm. Reason: Test results added

29th May 2022, 2:27 am	#9
hamid_1 Heptode Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: High Wycombe, Bucks. UK. Posts: 811	Re: Feeding a 1951 US Philco TV ?? If you can't find anything that produces NTSC signals, you can feed a PAL signal into your American TV. It will work in black and white. You must use an American system (NTSC-M) RF modulator otherwise you'll get no sound. You may need to adjust the vertical hold control on your TV. Also the picture may look stretched due to the different number of lines. Adjusting the height control will help, but it's best to use a true NTSC signal if possible. Luckily this is quite easy these days. Many DVD players and a small number of digital TV boxes sold in the UK can be switched to NTSC. However there is an easy way to obtain NTSC video from any modern device with HDMI out. You can buy HDMI2AV converter box for less than £10. These have a switch to select PAL or NTSC analogue video out from your HDMI source, such as a DVD/blu-ray player, digital TV box or PC. You'll still need an American RF modulator as well as the HDMI2AV converter. I've seen an all-in-one HDMI to RF converter box offered for sale at a reasonable price: https://www.amazon.co.uk/HDMI-Coaxia.../dp/B089NZWC64 It claims to support NTSC-M (the American analogue TV system) so in theory it should work for you. Simply connect an aerial lead from the box to your TV and tune it in - no separate modulator required.