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Vintage Tape (Audio), Cassette, Wire and Magnetic Disc Recorders and Players Open-reel tape recorders, cassette recorders, 8-track players etc.

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Old 23rd Sep 2018, 5:39 pm   #1
stevehertz
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Default Revox A77 Mk IV or Ferrograph Logic 7?

Revox A77 MkIV or Ferrograph Logic 7, which is generally considered the better machine? Comparing like for like of course as both were made in several versions. I know the BBC had Logic 7 machines, did they have Revox A77s? What were the plus and minus points of both machines?

I ask purely out of interest, I am not in the market for either.
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Old 23rd Sep 2018, 8:16 pm   #2
Ted Kendall
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Default Re: Revox A77 Mk IV or Ferrograph Logic 7?

Revox A77 every time. Why?

Robust constructon - die cast aluminium chassis.

Servo controlled capstan motor with internal reference, therefore exact speeds as standard plus easy varispeed.

Simple line up procedure with all presets accessible at once.

Modular electronics and logical internal layout, simplifying servicing.

Simple and effective tape path, easy to thread without opening gates and such.

Long life heads of superb performance.

Moderate size and weight.

Drawbacks? A few :

Domestic interfaces - but the standard Logic 7 has these too.

No motion sensing - this requires staying awake when going from fast wind to play. The B77 has motion sensing, and a retrofit is possible if you are feeling brave.

Slightly odd internal levels - the output amplifier noise peaks at 7 on the level control, and switching from tape to source monitoring on record drops the level recorded to tape by just under 1dB. These can be sorted out by simple modifications. The Dolby B version has rather better gain architecture, and the VUs respond on playback to boot.

Access to the heads for editing could be better - the flat top modification is not recommended as it moves the motor shield out of position and worsens hum.

The VUs are a bit small, but dynamically no worse than those on the Ferro.

I'll leave the Logic 7 fans to put their case...
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Old 23rd Sep 2018, 9:04 pm   #3
Michael Maurice
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Default Re: Revox A77 Mk IV or Ferrograph Logic 7?

Fully agree with Ted, but have to say I’ve never owned a Ferrograph.

Don’t forget the first Revox A77 appeared in 1967 and was a revelation. Lack of motion sensing was probably not on the cards (excuse the pun) because the technology available at the time wouldn’t support it.

I cant see why Ted has said that the domestic interfaces could be a drawback.

Access to the heads are difficult and I wonder why Revox decided on that type of design, given that the earlier 36 series were all in one plane.

Still better than the competition of its day by far.
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Old 23rd Sep 2018, 9:20 pm   #4
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Default Re: Revox A77 Mk IV or Ferrograph Logic 7?

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Fully agree with Ted, but have to say I’ve never owned a Ferrograph.
I did - briefly. A Series 7 high speed. Didn't compare with the Revox - hence "briefly".

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I cant see why Ted has said that the domestic interfaces could be a drawback.
In normal use, they aren't - I was thinking of the BBC Ferros at the time - jacks versus phonos is a matter of taste - and the DIN socket is proper DIN standard, for those who like that sort of thing
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Old 24th Sep 2018, 5:31 am   #5
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Default Re: Revox A77 Mk IV or Ferrograph Logic 7?

Not an A77 owner but from about a decade’s worth of experience of a Logic 7 I appreciate its modular circuits that aid fault-finding (not that my example has required much). The problems I had initially with my half-track example were down to a worn playback head, and that is my only niggle; that there is no tape lifter during fast wind.
The lack of ‘unobtainable’ logic chips or integrated circuits in its design also appeals to me; all the machine’s ‘logic’ is based on diodes, transistors and relays. Lovers of more sophisticated machines may scoff but the Ferrograph can easily be kept working where others may fail.

Having said this though, if an A77 came my way I’d love to have one in my collection too

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Old 24th Sep 2018, 7:11 am   #6
Ted Kendall
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Default Re: Revox A77 Mk IV or Ferrograph Logic 7?

You would appreciate the substantial lack of unobtainium in the A77, too - it's relay/diode logic, too.
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Old 24th Sep 2018, 8:15 am   #7
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Default Re: Revox A77 Mk IV or Ferrograph Logic 7?

Was the Logic 7 the pinnacle of Ferrograph machines?
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Old 24th Sep 2018, 9:32 am   #8
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Default Re: Revox A77 Mk IV or Ferrograph Logic 7?

I don't have anything against Ferrograph, but I can add a plus for A77's. Had one since the 70's allegedly flood damaged in Australia and never given a problem.
I used to do the maintenance for a studio in Brisbane. They had a selection of Ampex and AWA kit in the main studios and used A77's in the dubbing room with covers removed. I regularly had to line up the Ampex's and AWA's, but the A77's which got full of fag ash, old tape and lost razor blades never needed more than a quick chek and a head clean!
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Old 24th Sep 2018, 10:22 am   #9
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Default Re: Revox A77 Mk IV or Ferrograph Logic 7?

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Was the Logic 7 the pinnacle of Ferrograph machines?
To all intents and purposes, yes. There was the Studio 8, but that was an allegedly full-blown studio machine, short-lived and largely unmourned.
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Old 25th Sep 2018, 11:36 am   #10
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Default Re: Revox A77 Mk IV or Ferrograph Logic 7?

I have to admit it's Revox for me too, though when I was at Uni we did have a long-suffering Logic 7 which seemed to need the spool speed control - a function I did like - replacing every week! Also access to the heads for editing and cleaning was easier than on the Revox, but that's where the advantages of the Ferrograph stopped.
The BBC used Ferrographs because they were a British company, along with Racal tape. When restrictions were relaxed they used Revox PR99s.
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Old 25th Sep 2018, 12:55 pm   #11
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Default Re: Revox A77 Mk IV or Ferrograph Logic 7?

Can't speak for any BBC politics for only buying British until "rules where relaxed" but I can say from my time in the Corporation that it had a policy of buying kit that did the job required of it. In the 80s, in London BH, it was Studer in the studios (A80s and later a mixture of A810s and A807s), a mixture of Studer (A807 and B67) and Revox (PR99) as office listening and editing machines and in News studios Telefunken M15s. There were also Nagras and Uhers for interview recording (plus a few Lyrec Freds and Fridas too). As I said the BBC bought kit to do the job properly, I never saw a Ferro - read into that what you will! BTW is did use Racal Zonal 675 tape (along with Agfa PEM 468 which RTM now market as SM468 it was called BBC Type 200 tape). It used about 200, 000 10.5" reels a year (plus tape on 5" and 7" spools and 2" MT tape). It wasn't a "British" thing, economics in buying. 675 is still the tape I know best.
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Old 25th Sep 2018, 1:42 pm   #12
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Default Re: Revox A77 Mk IV or Ferrograph Logic 7?

Quite a few Ferrographs, and the pro derivative of the Logic 7, the NEAL SP7, found their way into local radio. Some LR engineers of my acquaintance had a less-than-respectful nickname for them.
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Old 25th Sep 2018, 5:51 pm   #13
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Default Re: Revox A77 Mk IV or Ferrograph Logic 7?

We had one Studio 8 machine foisted on us in the early moring Welsh language studio in Cardiff. It was retired without ceremony three days later after breaking down on three separate shows, even after considerable attention by the maintenance staff. Sent away in disgrace it never appeared again!

regards.
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Old 29th Sep 2018, 2:05 pm   #14
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Default Re: Revox A77 Mk IV or Ferrograph Logic 7?

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Originally Posted by Welsh Anorak View Post
The BBC used Ferrographs because they were a British company, along with Racal tape. When restrictions were relaxed they used Revox PR99s.
The BBC used machines from all over, for instance Philips at the Radiophonics Workshop and Studer C37s at BH quite early on.

The Overseas Service based at Bush House was government funded so they were obliged to buy British where available, this is why Leevers Rich Machines were used almost exclusively at Bush for many years but less often elsewhere.

For a while in the seventies they bought Leevers Rich and Studers on a sort of alternate order arrangement and a fair number of these machines went into the early local stations.

I never heard of a Ferrograph or Revox being used for actual broadcast use though it may well have happened later.
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Old 29th Sep 2018, 6:01 pm   #15
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Default Re: Revox A77 Mk IV or Ferrograph Logic 7?

Radiophonics, for a long time, had to get by on other departments' throw-outs, so all sorts of machines turned up there, including two Motosacoches - the Philips machines were used for news work at BH, and were actually very good.

Revox G36s were part of the kit issued to the first six Local Radio stations around 1968, but that apart weren't front line machines. Likewise the Ferrographs.
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Old 3rd Oct 2018, 9:49 am   #16
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Default Re: Revox A77 Mk IV or Ferrograph Logic 7?

Simple reasons neither Revox or Ferros were not used as BBC "front line " machines i.e. actual bradcast machines is that they don't have balanaced inputs/outputs. Until the PR99 came along both the A and B 77, and most probably the Ferros, they where a pain to edit on too. In BBC LR PR99s where used to record "the circuit" - BBC GNS (General News Service) audio being sent from London to all BBC LRs and as replay machines in the NCA DTL studio. NCA - News & Current Affairs Directorate. DTL - Down The Line. These are small contribution studios as every BBC LR that guests on other LRS or network radio - e.g. Radio 4 Today would go to to be interviewed either as a pre-record or live by the presenter in the remote studio. The machines where used to send pre-recorded audio. I did 5 years as a BBC LR engineer and 3 years previous to this as a network radio engineer in the 80s and 90s. We would never have let Ferros or Revoxs' anywhere near broadcast output. Although we did have a couple
of cased PR99s' that was used as a "portable" recorders for things such as discussion showes made outside the studios.
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Old 3rd Oct 2018, 1:21 pm   #17
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Default Re: Revox A77 Mk IV or Ferrograph Logic 7?

Ferrograph could supply the ministry version of their current machine which had balanced line in and out. In any case the BBC didn`t use off the shelf machines - in the case of the Studer B62 and I think later the B67 they made their own trolley and control panel which I believe more than doubled the cost. In the case of the Leevers Rich E200 which they insisted on calling E6 MkII, the BBC control panel was fitted into the standard Leevers M console along with other modifications required for BBC standard remote operation and fader start.

The BBC control panel incorporated balance transformers and line amplifiers so could be adapted to any tape machine.
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