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Old 26th Aug 2017, 11:43 pm   #21
Skywave
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Arrow Re: A simple mistake?

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Originally Posted by Argus25 View Post
This thread is a great story and it is based on our notions of symmetry.
Is it though? I know you have a detailed knowledge of ophthalmology, so your example in your post indeed fits that idea of symmetry. And I would agree with you that as humans, we do have a strong sense of symmetry. But I suspect that the existence of the two Systems is much broader and fundamental than just symmetry - possibly along the lines of the idea I suggested in my post #20. However, when I've read the book that Phil has listed, I'll be in a better position to decide - and who knows? You might be quite right! If this thread is still open once I have read it, I'll come back here.

For me, this Thread has become truly fascinating.

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Old 27th Aug 2017, 12:46 am   #22
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Default Re: A simple mistake?

There's also the variance between a maintenance engineer (1) looking for a fault on previously working equipment and an engineer (2)in (say) a factory checking out some new equipment.
Engineer 1, assumes and knows that the equipment worked and therefore a fault has occurred. Engineer 2 must assume nothing and work on the assumption that
a) either a part is faulty
or
b) somewhere on the assembly line someone has made a KICK UP.
And that is first question to be asked - DID it ever work.
Man vs woman. We've got two HUMAX STB working on our TV. An older 9125 and a newer one. At switch on ,our TV looks for the older type= 1= SCART: 2= HDMI and chooses the lower one. No problem there, untill switch off ,where she switches off the STB, and TV goes into standby. But give her a Washing machine with multiple programs and she works it out in minutes ( I've tried and given up).
But she has worked out how to record all her stuff on the new STB, to the extent that she's forgotten how to work the old one, which I use to record stuff.
But for all that ,out on the road- I'd trust her with a map over any Sat nav. Perhaps ,that's just LUV.
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Old 27th Aug 2017, 2:41 am   #23
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Default Re: A simple mistake?

We had to get the user manual out for the washing machine.
The touch screen panel had been dabbed by a bit of loose clothing during veg peeling and chopping. The child safety lock had got switched on by mistake.
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Old 27th Aug 2017, 4:33 am   #24
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Default Re: A simple mistake?

I had to replace a rather large four pole two way lighting switch up above the pilots seat on one of our rather older aircraft. Usual technique, disconnect one wire, reconnect it to the new switch, repeat 11 more times. At the end of the procedure, test it. Same defect. Then I found I still had the new switch in my hand. I guess that when there was six wires on each switch, I went into reverse instead of continuing forwards!
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Old 27th Aug 2017, 5:19 am   #25
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Default Re: A simple mistake?

There was a humorous flow chart circulating in the electronics industry since the year dot, in which one diamond-shaped boxes was labelled something like:

"Did you begger about with it?"

and the yes path goes to "Does anyone know you beggered about with it?"

David
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Old 27th Aug 2017, 7:07 am   #26
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Default Re: A simple mistake?

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However, when I've read the book that Phil has listed, I'll be in a better position to decide - and who knows?
Well I guess there is the actual problem to be solved, then the human response to the problem in the attempt to solve it. I think it is true that there is always the tendency to jump to a conclusion in problem solving. Let's say that happened to work out and get the correct result about 1 in 7 times, then that would be the ideal intermittent reinforcement rate to perpetuate the behavior. This is about the rate that prizes are given out by gambling machines and scratch lottery tickets !
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Old 27th Aug 2017, 7:31 am   #27
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A story of Fangio comes to mind. Mid-race pit stop - out of the car to let the mechanics refuel and change tyres (this was the 1950s, so he had time enough to do so - a quick pit stop was a minutes in those days). Comes the time to restart, and Fangio observes mechanic trying to crank the engine into life, without success. Said mechanic is grinding the handle round and round and getting more and more tired. Finally, Fangio walks smartly to the front of the car, gently but firmly moves the mechanic aside, grasps the handle, turms to the point of maximum compresiion and gives a sharp tug. Engine immediately ignites and seconds later he's on his way.
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Old 27th Aug 2017, 1:57 pm   #28
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I wish I had a fiver for every time I've gone the cycle of frantically adjusting knobs, stood back from the bench scratching my head, checked and rechecked my work, looked bemused, taken a voltage reading, had a mutter to myself etc when there is no trace on the scope only to find I hadn't flicked the switch at the mains plug.

Andy.
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Old 27th Aug 2017, 4:04 pm   #29
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Default Re: A simple mistake?

Quote:
Originally Posted by majoconz View Post
Same defect. Then I found I still had the new switch in my hand. I guess that when there was six wires on each switch, I went into reverse instead of continuing forwards!
I did that myself just recently! However I can't for the life of me, remember what I was working on. ;-)
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Old 27th Aug 2017, 8:03 pm   #30
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This afternoon I watched a TV programme about space rocket development in the U.S.A. from the 1950's to the present day. The essential theme was 'Things that go disastrously wrong at launch time'. Apart from the graphic videos of exploding rockets, it also dwelt on causes of such - if & when they could be identified. Clearly shown were many examples of zillions of $ and countless man-hours vapourised in seconds. It made me think of the few design disasters I've had at switch-on. Then, after a pause, I gained a sense of perspective. Yes, humans do make mistakes. There are small ones, large ones - and absolute whoppers! My mistakes are more than insignificant in comparison!

Al.
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Old 27th Aug 2017, 11:09 pm   #31
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That system 1 and 2 thing gets me all the time! Once system one has made you assume something, system two goes along with it, sometimes in the face of evidence to the contrary. Many times have I been led the wrong way on customer line faults that way, and spent hours going "round and round". I'll remember that, and try not to listen to system one quite so much!
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Old 28th Aug 2017, 12:11 am   #32
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I should really keep reminding myself to never assume anything. This applies to all manner of things, not just electronics. Tim, I have learned to politely ignore customer fault reports/description. It's better to start from scratch with your own diagnosis. It's even worse when you get two people with two different stories, which can turn into a heated argument, by which time you have probably walked away. Whenever I try to cut corners to save time, I normally end up spending more in the end. It's difficult to ignore experience and assume things, because you often get caught out. Luckily I work alone mostly in my day job so it is easy to keep daft mistakes quiet.
Alan.
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Old 28th Aug 2017, 12:41 am   #33
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Default Re: A simple mistake?

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I should really keep reminding myself to never assume anything. .
This is the notion in detective work. Usually their motto is something like:
"assume nothing, believe nobody and check everything" would work well in electronics and many other fields too.
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Old 28th Aug 2017, 2:09 pm   #34
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Always note down everything in your lab book (what do you mean you haven't got one?) it doesn't need to be tidy or neat just true and dated. I have an A4 one with a ribbon marker, a short pencil is tied to the end of this just in case I can't locate my fountain pen.

One of our test technicians kept coming to me with odd faults, when asked for the notes nothing came up, I walked away (a shade rude but it worked). Notes were soon taken and the real faults found.
 
Old 28th Aug 2017, 4:58 pm   #35
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I keep a work diary and have a small notebook for use when out on jobs. It's not because I am particularly well organised, but because my memory is rubbish, and the kind of work I do means recording either a lot of connection data or meter readings. It's saved me on many an occasion when I have become distracted from the immediate job and then gone back asking myself; now, was that pair E46 or 49 that was jumpered to pair D36? The other reason is to cover my backside for want of a better phrase. In previous employment there tended to be a witch hunt if anything went wrong with a job. If you write down times and dates, job numbers and where you were and are accused of doing something, you can smugly say "wait a minute I will just get my book out" and watch the accusers' face as you prove it wasn't you etc etc.
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Old 28th Aug 2017, 4:58 pm   #36
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Default Re: A simple mistake?

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A story of Fangio comes to mind.
There's a similar story of a F1 pit-stop where a car comes in for a tyre-change and goes out seconds later with the two original rear tyres swapped side-for-side and the two new tyres still sitting in the pits. . .
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Old 28th Aug 2017, 5:24 pm   #37
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If the mods will permit yet another 'tyre' story... I took my Freelander in for a new tyre after a screw penetrated the tread close to the sidewall. The next day I spotted an identical screw in the same place in the newly-fitted tyre! Cursing my bad luck, I was relieved and frustrated in equal measure when it dawned on me that they had replaced the wrong (good) tyre. That mistake cost the dealer dearly... I got two new tyres for the price of one. And I bet they had a witch-hunt afterwards. I believe in some organisations the process is known as "blamestorming".
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Old 28th Aug 2017, 5:34 pm   #38
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Although the thread title is wide open, please keep to the spirit of the Forum rules!
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Old 28th Aug 2017, 8:47 pm   #39
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was that pair E46 or 49 that was jumpered to pair D36
Dunno, that's why I put a croc clip on it because my working memory resembles that of a goldfish. My note book is vital , but no god if you leave it at the last customer...
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Old 28th Aug 2017, 9:31 pm   #40
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Or the ink runs because it got soaking wet on the last job and you left it in your coat pocket instead of putting it on the radiator overnight. Or you can't read your own writing, which happens a lot. I still swear by writing things down. I suppose it gives me that extra bit of confidence when you know things can go horribly wrong if you don't get it right first time.
Alan.
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