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Vintage Audio (record players, hi-fi etc) Amplifiers, speakers, gramophones and other audio equipment.

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Old 19th Sep 2018, 10:54 pm   #21
Boulevardier
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Default Re: Speaker cables

Up that "small scotch" to two or three large ones, and you won't notice any difference anyway - or care much even if you do!
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Old 20th Sep 2018, 8:25 am   #22
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Default Re: Speaker cables

If you want to know whether any difference in sound is objective (i.e. due to different cables causing the air movements from the speaker cones/domes to be different) or subjective (i.e. due to changes in the perception processes in your brain) then the only way to find out, and I really do mean THE ONLY WAY to find out, is by properly conducted double-blind testing. If you haven't done that then you can't be sure which it is.

Of course, as others have said, there's a good case for not caring what the nature of the difference is. In the end it matters that there is a difference in sound and depending on your circumstances that might well be a difference worth paying for. Amateur listening to music is (mostly) about bringing pleasure, and if money can buy you more of that then why not ?

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Old 20th Sep 2018, 8:43 am   #23
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Default Re: Speaker cables

Years ago I coped with the solid floor problem in a 20ft long room using flat aluminium earthing strip, gaffer taped to the floor beneath the (thick ) underlay. The resistance measured very low as I recall. I used 4BA nuts and bolts at each end to attach short connecting wires. Where the strips reached the skirting board, they were bent up at a right angle and screwed to the board.

Last edited by rontech; 20th Sep 2018 at 8:45 am. Reason: typos
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Old 20th Sep 2018, 9:01 am   #24
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Guaranteed to allow more HiFi sound down the cable, supplied with essential oxygen rich air expertly laid between the strands.
https://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/CA35STQ.html

Mike
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Old 20th Sep 2018, 9:41 am   #25
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Default Re: Speaker cables

G-J has the key. If by spending money someone gains happiness, then that's what it's all about. Whether the mechanism for that increase in happiness is physical or psychological doesn't really matter.

I have no difficulty with people having personal preferences, likes and dislikes. I'll defend their freedom to have them.

What causes me difficulty is where things which are really personal preferences get described as being right, and then the pseudoscience gets wheeled out to try to justify it. That has not happened in this thread, but it does relate to ground zero for a lot of products launched to cash in on the pseudoscience area of hifi.

Sitting in the drive outside is a Range Rover. Stupidly expensive, remarkably unreliable and expensive to repair. But I like it. It's my preference. Logic would have chosen a different vehicle, many people have suggested that something else (anything else!) would be more sensible. They are probably right, but it's my preference and my money. I wouldn't try to talk anyone else into getting one, I'm more likely to warn them of the downsides and show them a few bills.

It moves horse trailers smoothly and it did all the shopping for the street when the snow was deep this year. It moved all the timber for repairing the Kingdom Amateur Radio Society's clubhouse. It takes people and radio gear up big hills... see! it's a piece of radio-related equipment!

Similarly, stupidly expensive speaker cables will probably not damage the sound, with the exception being some ultra-high capacitance ones which drove certain models of amplifier unstable.

To my mind, proper 'active' speakers (with an 'e') have the amplifiers with them and need no long speaker cables. If speaker cables make a difference, then the zero option seems a good idea.

Luxuries don't have to make sense to anyone other than the purchaser. BUT it's only fair that the purchaser is told of the downsides and the upsides before making their decision.

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Old 20th Sep 2018, 9:42 am   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crackle View Post
Guaranteed to allow more HiFi sound down the cable, supplied with essential oxygen rich air expertly laid between the strands.
https://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/CA35STQ.html
I thought that "Oxygen free" was the mantra?
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Old 20th Sep 2018, 9:57 am   #27
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Default Re: Speaker cables

You first have to remove the oxygen from within the copper, so you can then put it in a pipe between the copper. Doesn't make any difference to the sound but works well for marketing.

As I said, low resistance (so perhaps not bell wire) and nothing unusual in capacitance and inductance is all that is needed for speaker cables. All else is cosmetic.
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Old 20th Sep 2018, 11:56 am   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Radio Wrangler View Post
To my mind, proper 'active' speakers (with an 'e') have the amplifiers with them and need no long speaker cables. If speaker cables make a difference, then the zero option seems a good idea.
Unfortunately, this is a nice theory but, having recently moved to active speakers, I realised that all I did was replace 3m of speaker cables with 3m of interconnects instead! I went with Neutrik plugs with Van Damme cable for three reasons:

(1) They are good quality cable and plugs
(2) They weren't stupidly expensive
(3) They offered the cable with a purple jacket, which matches the carpet.
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Old 20th Sep 2018, 12:09 pm   #29
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Yes, you exchange the problem of needing a lot of copper for the problem of needing to avoid noise pickup (particularly ground loops, old-fashioned taxi radios etc). The real advantage of active speakers is that they much more commonly have the crossovers before the power amps. But to go into any more detail would be straying off-topic.

Cheers,

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Old 22nd Sep 2018, 12:50 pm   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boulevardier View Post
Up that "small scotch" to two or three large ones, and you won't notice any difference anyway - or care much even if you do!
What a good idea, goes to show great minds think alike

Back to the subject in hand. A brief explanation may explain my thinking. For those of you that are not aware. Linn LK100’s are not monobloc amps, they are stereo power amps with RCA input/output connections and multiple banana plug output sockets for the speakers (without getting on hands and knees to look I think there are eight pairs of sockets per Amp). In my system I have three Amps, each fitted with an additional adjustable crossover card for bass, middle and treble frequencies. The speakers themselves have no crossovers at all, just three pairs of binding posts, one pair each for the relevant drivers. Now that’s the easy bit. The Linn K600 cable is a massive 2.5” wide and about .5” thick. It contains three pairs of conductors spaced in three moulded conduits along the length of the cable. Bending it is a no no. Putting it through holes in furniture and along skirting boards, shelves, speaker stands is almost impossible. As can be appreciated the three amps have to be in close proximity of each other which prevents the idea of having them next to the speakers as in a normal monobloc arrangements. The only way I can see to do that would be with six separate amps, not a viable arrangement. So, that’s why I was asking about the QED cables, they are so much more flexible. But at the end of the day, the system as it stands with the K600 does sound very good in my humble opinion, so, if it ain’t broke should I fix it?

I would like to thank you all for the advice and good humour, all much appreciated.
Mike
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Old 22nd Sep 2018, 1:12 pm   #31
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So they're three pairs of wires in a moulded outer cover. No magic (or majik) not even a speck of oofle dust. By being very inflexible and awkward, it makes owners very very aware that they don't have any ordinary cables, no, they have special branded ones!

Looking at an illustration of the Linn cables, I find the ratio of copper to plastic a little disappointing. If you measured them you may find the QED stuff to be lower resistance.

If you've already got them and you can fit them in all's well.

David
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Old 23rd Sep 2018, 9:18 am   #32
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Default Re: Speaker cables

Traditionally, Linn power amps were very fussy about loudspeaker cable. If you got the C or L of the cable wrong, the amp would break out in RF oscillation with smoky consequences. So Linn users would always buy Linn cable. I suspect, like Nene Valley Audio now, Linn did not like protection circuits or Zobel networks.

Now I suspect that more recent Linn amps can't get away with that sort of twitchyness anymore. But nonetheless provided you can handle the physical size and stiffness of the Linn K600 cable, I'd stick with it. Or ask Linn for specific recommendations.

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Old 23rd Sep 2018, 11:41 am   #33
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Linn K600 contains 3 twisted pairs of 4mm² stranded copper cable. As such, it's a sound engineering job for the purpose, nothing electrically outlandish or eccentric about it. But mechanically it's a nuisance, as Linnovice relates. As per RW's observation in post #9, this 'cost' tends to create a sensation of sacrifice for art, that may not have any justification in technical performance.

In professional audio installations, where needless complications and impaired usability are not tolerated, I would have no hesitation in replacing the K600 with three runs of flexible 4mm² single-pair and wouldn't even bother telling anyone I did that, as the change would not be audible above the subjective expectations. I can buy single-pair 4mm² professional speaker cable, of a brand and type that is used in many studios, for about £110 per 100m roll. I would be most surprised if any Linn amp would object to it, and if it did, I would think the amp highly unsatisfactory, as all professional monitoring amps work just fine with all types of cable.

But you want to change to Qudos, so I tried to confirm its gauge. The first 10 hits I looked at failed to state it. That's telling - like advertising pieces of timber without saying what size they are, merely that they will be excellent for your building project. Admittedly these are not from QED as the cable is discontinued. If it is the same as 79-strand, then it's 2.5mm². Would one hear the difference between 4mm² and 2.5? Probably not, unless the run is very long, or the speakers have a terribly lumpy impedance curve vs. frequency.

Changing a long run to 1mm² might be audible under adverse conditions and making it thin just for the sake of it is as much an affectation as grappling with cables like fire hoses.

So I'd use the QED. Or rather, the offcuts from those 100m rolls left over from the studio wiring job.
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Old 23rd Sep 2018, 2:07 pm   #34
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Default Re: Speaker cables

From an engineering viewpoint, if an amplifier goes unstable with straight forward 2.5 or 4 mm2 speaker cables, change the amplifier, not the cables.

It's quite easy to design networks to isolate an amplifier from the RF impedance presented to its output terminals (often attributed to Zobel - note: there is a series network and a shunt one) without any effect on the audio frequency range. But doing this did offend the religions of a couple of people. Their loss.

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Old 24th Sep 2018, 1:29 pm   #35
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One of the peculiarities of audio is that if you can't think how to design a better circuit then design a slightly worse one (e.g. omit the Zobel network) and then convince your target market that this is an advance in the start of the art.
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Old 24th Sep 2018, 1:48 pm   #36
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Default Re: Speaker cables

Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Linnovice View Post

I think I’ll tin and screw. I’ll be back and let you know how I get on.
Now you have poked a sore spot.......

If you're going to screw it DON'T tin it! The solder will creep under pressure and you'll end up with a bad connection. If you want to be seriously perfectionist, crimp on a suitable ferrule to ensure all the strands stay in the right place.
You beat me to it. I grew tired of telling our shop staff not to come into our workshop to tin their speaker leads! Guaranteed to go intermittent and require regular wiggling....
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Old 24th Sep 2018, 10:55 pm   #37
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Default Re: Speaker cables

It's always surprised me that no-one has used a four way speaker cable to extend the amplifier's feedback loop right onto the loudspeaker terminals. This would remove the cable's contribution to reduced damping factor and should eliminate any influence of cable on sound.

I guess anyone who did this wouldn't be very popular in the high mark-up world of HiFi cables!
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Old 24th Sep 2018, 11:52 pm   #38
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It's always surprised me that no-one has used a four way speaker cable to extend the amplifier's feedback loop right onto the loudspeaker terminals. This would remove the cable's contribution to reduced damping factor and should eliminate any influence of cable on sound.

I guess anyone who did this wouldn't be very popular in the high mark-up world of HiFi cables!
Isn't that what "Clean Drive" was on the old Aurex SB66?
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Old 24th Sep 2018, 11:52 pm   #39
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Default Re: Speaker cables

Going back to speaker cables, I was given a high end Quad system with massive speakers. I stuck with the inconvenient heavy duty cables at one property but it was a pain in the rear end, especially the strange banana plugs that fell out pretty easily. Always having used all sorts of recycled audio stuff costing next to nothing and getting very acceptable results I then used flexible mains cable with no apparent loss. I accept that some gear does look and sound better perhaps but there is always a psychological aspect [and hearing loss if you are older perhaps]. There are people with perfect pitch who can detect a difference of less than a quarter tone in a note on reproduction but it's not common and if the music is exciting enough it may not matter one jot. It's a bit like medicine-not yet an exact science. There may not be a conclusive answer but if something improves your situation-what does it matter

Dave W
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Old 24th Sep 2018, 11:53 pm   #40
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Default Re: Speaker cables

IMHO, a useful type of cable for speaker connections is single core tri-rated panel wire.
Affordable, flexible, comes in a wide range of sizes from too small to stupidly big.
Less bulky than mains cable since it is insulated rather than the insulation AND sheathing that is required for mains voltage.

Tri-rated wire is available in many colours, useful either for colour coding or simply to match the décor.
Two or more cores are easily twisted together.
Yellow and white or grey and white differentiates one wire from the other and is inconspicuous with light décor.
Black and brown likewise in darker interiors.

Available from the usual trade suppliers or from ebay.
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