UK Vintage Radio Repair and Restoration Powered By Google Custom Search Vintage Radio and TV Service Data

Go Back   UK Vintage Radio Repair and Restoration Discussion Forum > Specific Vintage Equipment > Vintage Amateur and Military Radio

Notices

Vintage Amateur and Military Radio Amateur/military receivers and transmitters, morse, and any other related vintage comms equipment.

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old 20th May 2010, 3:35 pm   #1
n_highfield
Pentode
 
n_highfield's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: West London, UK.
Posts: 102
Default Lifeboat emergency set?

Not sure if this is the proper area (or even perhaps the proper forum) to post this in, but if I've done this right you should see below a picture of a small generating set which a previous owner said was made to drive Marconi wireless transmitters.

The engine is a Barr & Stroud which brackets the date, as B&S only made engines from just after WWI to 1925/6, and the generator output is 1/4 KW at an unusual 800c/s. This latter says to me spark transmitter even though it's a bit late, but there is one further clue from 'Range and Vision -The first 100 years of Barr & Stroud':-

"During the early 1920s, the Board of Trade gave serious consideration to making emergency wireless sets compulsory items of equipment on ships' lifeboats.........Barr & Stroud collaborated with Marconi for a time.........came to nought however when the BOT decided not to impose greater financial obligations on hard-pressed shipowner while the (post war) depression in the shipping industry continued, and the proposed emergency wireless legislation was dropped."

I guess my main questions are; would lifeboat sets have been spark Tx even in the 1920's and does anyone have further info on such sets?

I have three engines with Marconi connections and would like to write a piece for Stationary Engine Magazine, but this one I know very little about.

http://inlinethumb51.webshots.com/44...600x600Q85.jpg
__________________
B.Rgds Nick H.

BVWS member
n_highfield is offline  
Old 20th May 2010, 4:26 pm   #2
Station X
Moderator
 
Station X's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Ipswich, Suffolk, IP4, UK.
Posts: 21,192
Default Re: Lifeboat emergency set?

I do not think that ship's lifeboats were fitted with radios before the end of WW2. Some military survial craft used in WW2 were equipped with "Gibson Girl" distress beacons powered by winding a crank handle.

As you suggest a proposal to fit radios to lifeboats was probably dropped for reasons of cost.
__________________
Graham. Forum Moderator

Reach for your meter before you reach for your soldering iron.
Station X is online now  
Old 20th May 2010, 4:44 pm   #3
n_highfield
Pentode
 
n_highfield's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: West London, UK.
Posts: 102
Default Re: Lifeboat emergency set?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Station X View Post
I do not think that ship's lifeboats were fitted with radios before the end of WW2. Some military survial craft used in WW2 were equipped with "Gibson Girl" distress beacons powered by winding a crank handle.

As you suggest a proposal to fit radios to lifeboats was probably dropped for reasons of cost.
Watched 'Island in the sky' film over Xmas - much cranking of the Gibson Girl in evidence!

Legislation for compulsory lifeboat sets did come in for certain classes of vessel in 1924 -see Hansard:-
http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/c...ty-regulations
But probably too late for the Marconi / B&S bid.

Any ideas on what would have been the preferred (not neccesarily of course state of the art) technology at the time?
__________________
B.Rgds Nick H.

BVWS member
n_highfield is offline  
Old 20th May 2010, 5:04 pm   #4
Station X
Moderator
 
Station X's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Ipswich, Suffolk, IP4, UK.
Posts: 21,192
Default Re: Lifeboat emergency set?

Quote:
The Life-Saving Appliances Rules, which were revised in 1924, after full consideration by the Merchant Shipping Advisory Committee, require in the case of foreign-going passenger ships that if the ship carries more than 10 boats, one shall be fitted with a wireless telegraph apparatus; if more than 15 boats, one shall be a motor boat fitted with a wireless telegraph apparatus, and if more than 20 boats, two shall be motor boats so fitted. As at present advised, I do not propose to alter these Rules, but the question of motor boats and wireless will be amongst those considered by the International Conference on Safety of Life at Sea which meets next spring.
Cargo carrying ships were excluded as they were not passenger ships. I doubt that cross channel ferries had more than 10 lifeboats, so I guess the legislation only affected ocean liners which would have been a very small part of the British merchant fleet.

A bit of research into ocean liners might reveal what type of radio equipment was fitted to lifeboats.
__________________
Graham. Forum Moderator

Reach for your meter before you reach for your soldering iron.
Station X is online now  
Old 21st May 2010, 10:09 pm   #5
m0cemdave
Octode
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Bletchley, Buckinghamshire, UK.
Posts: 1,205
Default Re: Lifeboat emergency set?

Quote:
Originally Posted by n_highfield View Post

The engine is a Barr & Stroud which brackets the date, as B&S only made engines from just after WWI to 1925/6, and the generator output is 1/4 KW at an unusual 800c/s. This latter says to me spark transmitter even though it's a bit late, but there is one further clue from 'Range and Vision -The first 100 years of Barr & Stroud':-

"During the early 1920s, the Board of Trade gave serious consideration to making emergency wireless sets compulsory items of equipment on ships' lifeboats.........Barr & Stroud collaborated with Marconi for a time.........came to nought however when the BOT decided not to impose greater financial obligations on hard-pressed shipowner while the (post war) depression in the shipping industry continued, and the proposed emergency wireless legislation was dropped."

I guess my main questions are; would lifeboat sets have been spark Tx even in the 1920's and does anyone have further info on such sets?
My copy of Dowsett, 4th edition, pages 452-453, describes this as the power plant for a Marconi 1/4kW Lifeboat Spark Set. There's a photo, and the generator is identical to yours.

"The Power Plant:
This consists of a special single cylinder high speed petrol engine, driving a 1/4kw. alternator, and is illustrated in the photograph (fig. 447).
The engine is of the single sleeve valve type, the bore is 40mm. and the stroke is 35mm.
The engine, generator and petrol tank are mounted on a common base plate and the engine is air cooled.
Direct coupling is employed between the engine and the alternator and the latter is constructed to give alternating current at 800 cycles frequency, and is fitted with a small exciter."

It also notes:
"In accordance with Board of Trade regulations, all vessels carrying more than ten lifeboats are required to fit at least one with a wireless telegraph installation and searchlight."
m0cemdave is online now  
Old 21st May 2010, 10:29 pm   #6
n_highfield
Pentode
 
n_highfield's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: West London, UK.
Posts: 102
Default Re: Lifeboat emergency set?

Quote:
Originally Posted by m0cemdave View Post
(snip) My copy of Dowsett, 4th edition, pages 452-453, describes this as the power plant for a Marconi 1/4kW Lifeboat Spark Set. There's a photo, and the generator is identical to yours.
Brilliant - this is the first time I've approached researching from the wireless rather than engine side of things and I'm jolly glad I did, best lead I've had!

I'm not familier with 'Dowsett' (of course I'll toddle off and hit google now!). What date is the publication and any chance of a scan if it doesn't pop up on google books or one of the archives?

Thank you m0cemdave
__________________
B.Rgds Nick H.

BVWS member
n_highfield is offline  
Old 21st May 2010, 11:24 pm   #7
m0cemdave
Octode
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Bletchley, Buckinghamshire, UK.
Posts: 1,205
Default Re: Lifeboat emergency set?

Quote:
Originally Posted by n_highfield View Post
I'm not familier with 'Dowsett' (of course I'll toddle off and hit google now!). What date is the publication and any chance of a scan if it doesn't pop up on google books or one of the archives?
Pleased I could help....

I have a well stocked reference library, built up over many years, and it's nice when it's able to answer questions like this.

The book is "Handbook of Technical Instructions for Wireless Telegraphists"
by H.M Dowsett. The 4th edition was published by Iliffe / Wireless World.

The first edition was published in 1913, authored by J C Hawkhead and dealt mainly with Marconi equipment. Subsequent editions were by Dowsett. The 2nd edition came out in 1915, 3rd in 1923, the 4th is undated (but mine has an original owner's inscription of 1931), 6th in 1939, 7th in 1942. I think there were a couple of later ones too.

I have several editions of this and they are all different because this was the period when the technology was advancing rapidly. I don't know if this particular set appears in other editions (I don't have the 3rd or 5th)

These were a standard text book for ships radio officers. As well as the theory, they contain detailed descriptions and operating notes for much of the marine radio equipment of the time complete with many photographs. As such they are now some of the best reference works on the subject.

They can be found lurking in dark corners of old secondhand bookshops, and sometimes under the tables at radio rallies. But beware of buying vintage radio books on ebay - one of the most prolific dealers has a long and disgraceful history of bidding up his own auctions.

The book doesn't sit flat enough to go on my scanner, but I might be able to get something useful with the camera.
m0cemdave is online now  
Old 22nd May 2010, 12:12 am   #8
m0cemdave
Octode
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Bletchley, Buckinghamshire, UK.
Posts: 1,205
Default Re: Lifeboat emergency set / pages

Here are photographs of the relevant pages. They look usable on my screen. You may need to import them into a photo-editor to improve the contrast.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	p451x.jpg
Views:	204
Size:	38.5 KB
ID:	36135   Click image for larger version

Name:	p452x.jpg
Views:	177
Size:	37.6 KB
ID:	36136   Click image for larger version

Name:	p453x.jpg
Views:	229
Size:	33.1 KB
ID:	36137   Click image for larger version

Name:	p454x.jpg
Views:	165
Size:	43.5 KB
ID:	36138  
m0cemdave is online now  
Old 22nd May 2010, 9:47 am   #9
n_highfield
Pentode
 
n_highfield's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: West London, UK.
Posts: 102
Default Re: Lifeboat emergency set / pages

Quote:
Originally Posted by m0cemdave View Post
Here are photographs of the relevant pages. They look usable on my screen. You may need to import them into a photo-editor to improve the contrast.
Can't thank you enough. Just looking on little 'netbook' at the moment but the shots look useable - I'll see what I can see on a 'proper' PC later.

I have quite a few radio books but most are domestic (John Scott-Taggart etc) or technical (eg Langford-Smith). Also engine books, but Barr and Stroud Co. history is only one which yielded any info as mentioned earlier.

Interesting that your ref looks like being late 20's /early 30's - the production period of B&S engines is pretty well established so perhaps it was carried over from the previous edition.

Thanks again, this info has put new imputus into the preparation of my Stationary Engine Magazine article - other Marconi related engines BTW are WWI 'pack set' Douglas and Empire flying boat auxiliary Marconi-Stanley.
__________________
B.Rgds Nick H.

BVWS member
n_highfield is offline  
Old 22nd May 2010, 12:52 pm   #10
m0cemdave
Octode
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Bletchley, Buckinghamshire, UK.
Posts: 1,205
Default Re: Lifeboat emergency set?

Quote:
Interesting that your ref looks like being late 20's /early 30's - the production period of B&S engines is pretty well established so perhaps it was carried over from the previous edition.
Yes, the books include older equipment that was likely to be encountered in service, so the date of publication does not necessarily imply "current" kit.

If anyone reading this has a 3rd edition, maybe they could let us know if it appears in there.

Good luck with your article.

Dave.
m0cemdave is online now  
Old 24th May 2010, 2:10 pm   #11
n_highfield
Pentode
 
n_highfield's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: West London, UK.
Posts: 102
Default Re: Lifeboat emergency set?

Quote:
Originally Posted by m0cemdave View Post
Quote:
Interesting that your ref looks like being late 20's /early 30's - the production period of B&S engines is pretty well established so perhaps it was carried over from the previous edition.
Yes, the books include older equipment that was likely to be encountered in service, so the date of publication does not necessarily imply "current" kit.

If anyone reading this has a 3rd edition, maybe they could let us know if it appears in there.

Good luck with your article.

Dave.
Had a proper look at extract from Dowsett now. Text is fine and certainly answers many questions I had about the set but the pictures haven't really survived too well. As you say, I can adjust contrast etc but basic resolution is wanting. I presume there is a lowish limit on what can be attached to forum posts but if you still have higher res images on your PC or camera, could I ask you to email them to me direct?

(PM sent)
__________________
B.Rgds Nick H.

BVWS member
n_highfield is offline  
Old 24th May 2010, 5:42 pm   #12
m0cemdave
Octode
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Bletchley, Buckinghamshire, UK.
Posts: 1,205
Default Re: Lifeboat emergency set?

Replied via email.
m0cemdave is online now  
Old 26th May 2010, 10:53 am   #13
HMV 1120
Hexode
 
HMV 1120's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Weeting, Norfolk.
Posts: 465
Default Re: Lifeboat emergency set?

In reference to the use of spark, regulations banning the use of spark transmitters did not apply to lifeboat sets and they continued in use throughout the second world war and into the late 1940's.

Robs
__________________
Real radios glow in the dark
M6GLD
HMV 1120 is offline  
Old 9th Jun 2010, 5:35 pm   #14
JHGibson
Retired Dormant Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Salt Spring Island, BC, Canada
Posts: 368
Default Re: Lifeboat emergency set?

My first ship as a Marconi Radio Officer was the Empress of Scotland, a Transatlantic liner. When I left her in April 1953 she still had spark transmitters in the motor lifeboats. The transmitters were powered from 24 volt lead acid batteries via a 100V 500 hz motor alternator.
John.
JHGibson is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 2:31 pm.


All information and advice on this forum is subject to the WARNING AND DISCLAIMER located at https://www.vintage-radio.net/rules.html.
Failure to heed this warning may result in death or serious injury to yourself and/or others.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright ©2002 - 2023, Paul Stenning.