UK Vintage Radio Repair and Restoration Powered By Google Custom Search Vintage Radio and TV Service Data

Go Back   UK Vintage Radio Repair and Restoration Discussion Forum > Other Discussions > Homebrew Equipment

Notices

Homebrew Equipment A place to show, design and discuss the weird and wonderful electronic creations from the hands of individual members.

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old 20th Aug 2013, 10:11 am   #21
Richard
Heptode
 
Richard's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Garnant, near Ammanford, South Wales, UK.
Posts: 657
Default Re: Variac affecting moving-iron meter

How about fitting a digital meter
__________________
BVWS member.
Richard is offline  
Old 20th Aug 2013, 11:16 am   #22
cmjones01
Nonode
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Warsaw, Poland and Cambridge, UK
Posts: 2,669
Default Re: Variac affecting moving-iron meter

I like your lateral thinking! That would be too easy, though. I simply fancied the 1950s-style look of these panel meters, and I've done the hard bit (the metalwork) now, so I'm determined to get them to work.

Chris
__________________
What's going on in the workshop? http://martin-jones.com/
cmjones01 is offline  
Old 20th Aug 2013, 8:37 pm   #23
cmjones01
Nonode
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Warsaw, Poland and Cambridge, UK
Posts: 2,669
Default Re: Variac affecting moving-iron meter

I've now tried making a screen using 1.6mm steel sheet, bent round into a cylinder to fit round the meter. It improved the accuracy still further, though there's still a detectable influence from the variac. I haven't tried making a screen which covers the back of the meter as well, though. Maybe I will if I'm feeling very enthusiastic about metalwork!

Interestingly it made no difference whether I welded the ends of the steel strip together or not.

Chris
__________________
What's going on in the workshop? http://martin-jones.com/
cmjones01 is offline  
Old 21st Aug 2013, 10:14 am   #24
cmjones01
Nonode
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Warsaw, Poland and Cambridge, UK
Posts: 2,669
Default Re: Variac affecting moving-iron meter

I tried adding a screen (just tinplate cut out with tinsnips) to the back of the meter as well as the sides, and it made a useful difference, so I decided to keep it. I made another screen for the voltmeter because that was also being affected: changes in load on the variac made the pointer swing all over the place. I attach a picture of the end result. Sorry about the awful welding. I've run out of gas for the MIG, so I had to weld without any shielding gas. The tinplate back is just soldered on to the cylindrical screen. There are two holes drilled and tapped in the sides with screws in which can be tightened to gently grip the meter casing and hold the screen in place.

Now both meters have a tendency to over-read by about 5%, but they are dramatically better than they were without the screens. Lesson learned! Keep your moving-iron meters away from Variacs, or make sure they're magnetically screened.

Thank you everyone for the suggestions and advice.
Chris
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Img_5199s.jpg
Views:	128
Size:	107.7 KB
ID:	83152  
__________________
What's going on in the workshop? http://martin-jones.com/
cmjones01 is offline  
Old 21st Aug 2013, 1:52 pm   #25
TrevorG3VLF
Rest in Peace
 
TrevorG3VLF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Matlock, Derbyshire, UK.
Posts: 1,378
Default Re: Variac affecting moving-iron meter

I don't know whether it will make much difference but you could twist the meter cables together to reduce magnetic pick-up.
TrevorG3VLF is offline  
Old 21st Aug 2013, 11:01 pm   #26
cmjones01
Nonode
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Warsaw, Poland and Cambridge, UK
Posts: 2,669
Default Re: Variac affecting moving-iron meter

I tried moving the cables around - it makes a difference, but only if they're actually wrapped around the case of the meter.
__________________
What's going on in the workshop? http://martin-jones.com/
cmjones01 is offline  
Old 4th Nov 2013, 9:04 am   #27
Billy T
Retired Dormant Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Posts: 631
Default Re: Variac affecting moving-iron meter

Quote:
Originally Posted by TrevorG3VLF View Post
I do not see why the magnetic field will differ with the load.
Magnetic feld strength is directly proportional to load current, therefore as the variac voltage and output current rises, the field strength increases in sympathy. The field pattern from a complex source such as a transformer or variac abates at the inverse cube of distance, so it is very strong close to the core and windings, but reduces rapidly over distance, however any moving iron or moving coil meter in close proximity will be adversely affected.

Shielding can be difficult to implement because thin (easily workable) materials saturate at low field levels and thus their shielding effect is minimal. Multi-layer steel-aluminium-steel shielding material offers an improvement and works very well, with the eddy currents in the aluminium core adding to the field cancellation effects.

I work on field mitigation projects for Universities and Hospitals etc and by far the best strategy is to move the source away from the affected instrument then use shielding to mop up residuals, followed by active field cancellation if necessary. The latter was the only technology ever to make my principal field meter read zero nanotesla in all three axis simultaneously.

In this instance it is inevitable that the meter will be affected by the core fields, and of course the interference will worsen as the variac load increases.

Cheers

Billy
Billy T is offline  
Old 4th Nov 2013, 11:19 am   #28
TrevorG3VLF
Rest in Peace
 
TrevorG3VLF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Matlock, Derbyshire, UK.
Posts: 1,378
Default Re: Variac affecting moving-iron meter

The core field will be almost constant regardless of the load. There will of course be extra field generated by load current external to the Variac especialy if the loop is large.
TrevorG3VLF is offline  
Old 26th Dec 2013, 7:05 am   #29
Billy T
Retired Dormant Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Posts: 631
Default Re: Variac affecting moving-iron meter

Quote:
Originally Posted by TrevorG3VLF View Post
I do not see why the magnetic field will differ with the load.
The radiated magnetic field strength will be proportional to current in the inductor windings, so loading up the Variac will increase the strength of the EM field radiated from the windings and core of the variac. That appears to be the cause of the metering anomallies.

Cheers

Billy
Billy T is offline  
Old 26th Dec 2013, 11:56 am   #30
Bazz4CQJ
Dekatron
 
Bazz4CQJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Oxfordshire, UK.
Posts: 4,923
Default Re: Variac affecting moving-iron meter

As the years go by , I am increasingly inclined to regard "weight", as in "lack of weight" as a very important technical parameter for electronic equipment. My 8amp Variac weighs quite enough as supplied, so when I wanted to add meters to it, the negligible weight of an inexpensive digital meter, reading both V & A, was irresistible. It had not occurred to me when making that decision, that I would also avoid the problem which magnetic fields have on other types of meters .
Bazz4CQJ is offline  
Old 26th Dec 2013, 2:42 pm   #31
Refugee
Dekatron
 
Refugee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Worksop, Nottinghamshire, UK.
Posts: 5,549
Default Re: Variac affecting moving-iron meter

I have found those square moving iron meters that used to be sold by RS to be fine even hard up against the Variac coils.
Refugee is offline  
Old 26th Dec 2013, 7:26 pm   #32
cmjones01
Nonode
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Warsaw, Poland and Cambridge, UK
Posts: 2,669
Default Re: Variac affecting moving-iron meter

I think the square meters have steel cases, which would make them more tolerant of the field from the variac. My round ones just have bakelite cases. They were very cheap, though...maybe that's one reason why!

Chris
__________________
What's going on in the workshop? http://martin-jones.com/
cmjones01 is offline  
Old 28th Dec 2013, 12:13 am   #33
Herald1360
Dekatron
 
Herald1360's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Leominster, Herefordshire, UK.
Posts: 16,526
Default Re: Variac affecting moving-iron meter

I still don't see that the magnetic field in the variac core increases with load current. Apart from anything else, if a TX is well designed and uses the core close to saturation, any field increase would saturate the core, which doesn't happen!

A variac is no different from an ordinary transformer with one end of the secondary connected to one end of the primary. Any change in core field caused by secondary loadcurrent is compensated for by a corresponding change in the primary current, leaving the core field at the same level- at least to a first order, leaving out any non ideality of the transformer.

Magnetic fields round any connecting wires or loops will of course vary with load.
__________________
....__________
....|____||__|__\_____
.=.| _---\__|__|_---_|.
.........O..Chris....O
Herald1360 is offline  
Old 3rd Jan 2014, 9:08 am   #34
Billy T
Retired Dormant Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Posts: 631
Default Re: Variac affecting moving-iron meter

Quote:
Originally Posted by Billy T View Post
The radiated magnetic field strength will be proportional to current in the inductor windings, so loading up the Variac will increase the strength of the EM field radiated from the windings and core of the variac. That appears to be the cause of the metering anomallies.
Here is a simple plot of radiated field strength vs load. The null was unexpected, but I would put that down to possible field cancellation effects, as the load had a coiled up power cord which was adjacent to both the variac and the field metering location.

Field meter was a professional triaxial & true RMS FD1 by Combiniva of Sweden.

Cheers

Billy
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Variac Field vs Load.jpg
Views:	80
Size:	67.6 KB
ID:	87382  
Billy T is offline  
Old 3rd Jan 2014, 9:23 am   #35
Station X
Moderator
 
Station X's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Ipswich, Suffolk, IP4, UK.
Posts: 21,192
Default Re: Variac affecting moving-iron meter

What are the units on the X axis?
__________________
Graham. Forum Moderator

Reach for your meter before you reach for your soldering iron.
Station X is online now  
Old 3rd Jan 2014, 10:14 am   #36
cmjones01
Nonode
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Warsaw, Poland and Cambridge, UK
Posts: 2,669
Default Re: Variac affecting moving-iron meter

That's very interesting indeed! Graham, I think the units on the X axis are the cells in the table at the top, so they're roughly 'voltage output' but non-linear. It's nice to see some hard data that shows I'm not going mad - the field strength really does vary with variac output, and in a non-obvious way, too. I also suspect it varies in different ways at different points around the variac, since the current in the two 'halves' of the winding varies both in magnitude and location as the wiper moves.
__________________
What's going on in the workshop? http://martin-jones.com/
cmjones01 is offline  
Old 3rd Jan 2014, 3:38 pm   #37
Lucien Nunes
Rest in Peace
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: London, UK.
Posts: 2,508
Default Re: Variac affecting moving-iron meter

To concur with and expand upon the previous post (which I had missed somehow!) it's interesting but not surprising - the S-shape is probably explained by the simple fact of the input being connected to a tap in the winding rather than the finish. But it's worth exploring why the curve between the minima is of that form...

You don't mention along which axis the measurement is taken or at what circumferential position relative to the ends of the Variac winding. However those are most important parameters because leakage is anything but geometrically uniform.The variac 'setting' varies not only the electrical transformation ratio but also the physical shape of the active parts of the magnetic circuit, therefore by inspection some components of the leakage flux will change not only in magnitude but also in spatial vector according to the variac setting. We also apparently have to contend with varying load current, if the power is a constant 200W.

Let's consider the effects of these parameters. To start with, I would be tempted to discount the effect of the coiled power cord as it's a bifilar winding, and air cored. If the load power is constant at 200W, we are varying not only the voltage but also the secondary current as an inverse function of voltage. I am not sure how you have dealt with the discontinuity approaching zero volts when the load current would exceed the Variac rating?

To describe the spatial effect of the setting, consider first a hypothetical variable voltage device consisting of a layer-wound autotransformer of very many turns on a single-bobbin EI core, with each turn brought out to a tapping selector of arbitrarily many ways. Electrically it works like a Variac, but magnetically it will behave like any typical EI transformer, with leakage MMF along any particular external vector varying mainly as a function of the flux density in the unwound part of the core. Hence with the relatively constant magnetising current, one might expect only a modest variation in leakage due to the loss factors, and in approximately scalar fashion.

Compare a Variac, in which the physical disposition of the turns passing load current varies with brush position. At minimum setting it is an unloaded toroid with a 'bald patch' between start and finish, leading to fringe effects around the ends of the winding. At maximum it is the same. At 50% the winding on half the core is carrying input current only, the other the vector sum current. Discounting the 'bald patch', the layout now approximates to a toroid with a winding covering only half the circumference, carrying the sum current. One can imagine this progressing around the core as the setting is altered, carrying with it certain components of the leakage while others remain pegged relative to the 'bald patch'.

Now, looking at the curve above, the maximum voltage exceeds normal mains voltage, therefore I assume the supply is connected to a tap in the winding. The minima appear to coincide with settings of zero, and where the wiper is located at the likely position of the input tap. These are the cases mentioned above as 'minimum' and 'maximum'. For settings where the brush is not at either end of the current-carrying section of the winding, the leakage flux at the measurement point increases. But if you were to measure at many points around the core, I expect you would see a wide variety of different curves. With delta changes in setting they will perhaps all rotate through fractions of the setting angle, but with large changes you might obtain curves of different orders entirely, their form differing also according to the V/I curve of the load. They would be interesting to study!

Last edited by Lucien Nunes; 3rd Jan 2014 at 3:56 pm. Reason: Addition
Lucien Nunes is offline  
Old 22nd Jan 2014, 6:57 am   #38
Billy T
Retired Dormant Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Posts: 631
Default Re: Variac affecting moving-iron meter

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bazz4CQJ View Post
As the years go by , I am increasingly inclined to regard "weight", as in "lack of weight" as a very important technical parameter for electronic equipment. My 8amp Variac weighs quite enough as supplied, so when I wanted to add meters to it, the negligible weight of an inexpensive digital meter, reading both V & A, was irresistible.
I did likewise and have found it very useful indeed, I produced a calibration chart to give me true RMS values, which frees up my more elaborate instruments for other purposes, most recently when checking a UPS that was the subject of a rejected insurance claim. Five previous 'experts' had said the UPS was at fault.

The insurance company changed its mind, accepted my client's claim and paid my account into the bargain.

Cheers

Billy
Billy T is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 4:03 pm.


All information and advice on this forum is subject to the WARNING AND DISCLAIMER located at https://www.vintage-radio.net/rules.html.
Failure to heed this warning may result in death or serious injury to yourself and/or others.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright ©2002 - 2023, Paul Stenning.