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Old 4th Sep 2014, 12:56 pm   #21
radioman
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Default Re: Castles in the Sky, the story of Radar and Watson Watt

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Was the "Hertz" unit in use in the UK in the 1930's? Megacycles maybe?
I doubt 'Hertz' was used as a unit back then !
One of our local radio amateurs still talks about Megacycles even now.
Also, I've got a Solartron signal generator from the 60's and it's calibrated in Mc/s.
I hope this won't detract from the programme too much.

Andy
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Old 4th Sep 2014, 2:22 pm   #22
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Default Re: Castles in the Sky, the story of Radar and Watson Watt

From http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hertz, I know not always the best for reference.
The IEC established the unit "hertz" in 1930 and was adopted by the CGPM in 1960, so it could easily have been referred to in the 1940's.
I was at Tech college in the early 60's and we were using 'cycles per second' i.e kilo cycles etc and by the middle 60's we had to start using 'hertz' as all exams from then would be using the hertz SI unit.

I still think in cycles per second, it just makes more sense to me, it says what it does, but that's just me.
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Old 4th Sep 2014, 2:30 pm   #23
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Default Re: Castles in the Sky, the story of Radar and Watson Watt

Hertz (Hz) is at least non ambiguous and a tribute to the great man. Using it won't detract from the programme at all. I must have supper made and eaten by 20:55, note to self!
 
Old 4th Sep 2014, 2:57 pm   #24
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Default Re: Castles in the Sky, the story of Radar and Watson Watt

I could certainly imagine "Hertz" being used by University/Boffin-type people [Randall and Boot? Alan Blumlein?] but would have thought "cycles per second" would have been the more common usage amongst the military and manufacturing types (just as the Metric system was used pretty universally amongst scientists from the start of the 20th century but 'tradespeople' stuck with feet and inches to this day).

[Hell, my late father's "Admiralty Handbook of Wireless Telegraphy" - which was still standard training-material until the end of WWII - uses Mics and Jars for inductance and capacitance],
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Old 4th Sep 2014, 3:45 pm   #25
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Default Re: Castles in the Sky, the story of Radar and Watson Watt

Encyclopdeia Britannia says W Watt was on 25 Hertz in 1935 and defended this low frequency by saying start with third best and move to second-the first never comes! I suspect this story may illustrate his personality . Apparently there was a war time move to using what became "Chain Home" in conjunction with the later "Chain Low" at 200 Megs/Hetrtz to achieve more range.

There is quite a good feature on the program in this weeks Radio Times but you won't find any technical material.

No doubt there will be a disseection of the script in due course. I'll be interested to try and ID a lot of the gear shown in the background, as illustrated in 1950's copies of Wireless World. Primarily though, it's a drama and getting across the [still not very well understood] importance of Radar in WW2 to a wider audience is the priority. Eddie Izzard is well known for his long term interest in the history of the Second World War.
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Old 4th Sep 2014, 5:45 pm   #26
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Default Re: Castles in the Sky, the story of Radar and Watson Watt

I dont think that the term Hertz was officially adopted by the UK until the early 70's. As part of our acceptance of SI Units for entry requirements for the then EEC.
Certainly, the RAF were still teaching the use of Kc/s etc in the mid 60's whilst on my wireless fitter's course -1964/65. But by the time I commenced instructor duties in 1970, we were in the process of changing over to KHz etc.
Hertzian Waves were used as a terminology back in the days of Lodge, Popov & Marconi.

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Old 4th Sep 2014, 10:15 pm   #27
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Default Re: Castles in the Sky, the story of Radar and Watson Watt

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Was the "Hertz" unit in use in the UK in the 1930's? Megacycles maybe?
Hi,

Not to my knowledge, I think the use of Hertz started a good
twenty years later!

Kind regards

Dave
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Old 4th Sep 2014, 10:37 pm   #28
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Default Re: Castles in the Sky, the story of Radar and Watson Watt

That was fun, and Hertz where mentioned!
 
Old 4th Sep 2014, 10:49 pm   #29
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Default Re: Castles in the Sky, the story of Radar and Watson Watt

That was an error, the Hz that is, the engineers would be talking in Megs and KayCees.
I also think the multimeter was out of place, I don't think the Taylor was around at this time but ready to be corrected. An early AVO would perhaps have been more fitting?
Overall a good program which at least showed Lindemann in his true light!
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Old 4th Sep 2014, 10:54 pm   #30
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Default Re: Castles in the Sky, the story of Radar and Watson Watt

I must get some explosive squibs to enhance my radio display!

I think I saw an HRO, BC-348 and a RAF VHF set amongst the equipment.
Was that a KB Kobra 305 in the pub?
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Old 4th Sep 2014, 10:59 pm   #31
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Default Re: Castles in the Sky, the story of Radar and Watson Watt

Kept me in front of a TV for an hour and a half which is a feat in itself. No doubt the vehicle enthusiasts will be dissecting the vehicles, the fashion forums will be commenting on the tank tops etc etc but I enjoyed it.

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Old 4th Sep 2014, 11:05 pm   #32
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Default Re: Castles in the Sky, the story of Radar and Watson Watt

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As brunel mentioned earlier - I too hope that RV Jones receives a place of significance in the program. Later in life he became Prof. Jones at Aberdeen University.
Ref: RV Jones, I have two editions of his book 'Most Secret War' here on my shelf. It's a fantastic read, all the more riveting for being true.

Unfortunately Jones did not feature in this dramatised version of the story at all, EXCEPT that Watson-Watt was seen to pull the famous 'drowning of the telephone' prank for which RV Jones was actually responsible. Maybe this was their nod to him. They surely must have realised that anyone familiar with the story would know that it wasn't Watson-Watt who did that.

My main beef about the drama was that it was very techno-lite- OK, we are all hardened techies and would always want more but really - they didn't even properly recreate the original experiment in which continuous radio waves reflected from a moving aircraft alternately reinforced and cancelled out the direct signal from a transmitter.

The short flying sequences at the end were interesting - they looked mostly genuine so I suspect it was all ex-Battle of Britain film footage.
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Old 4th Sep 2014, 11:24 pm   #33
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Default Re: Castles in the Sky, the story of Radar and Watson Watt

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I doubt 'Hertz' was used as a unit back then !
As a small child I had a basic Hornby electric train set with the iconic slope-fronted, side louvred black hammer-finish cabinet, large red knob with a centre-off detent at the top of its travel and a pop-out reset switch mounted just above it.

I was always mystified by the words '50 cycles' on the rear plate. I couldn't imagine where these 50 bicycles might be or why anyone would need 50 of them... Anyway, that was in the 1960s so the term 'cycles' was still being used then.
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Old 4th Sep 2014, 11:31 pm   #34
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Default Re: Castles in the Sky, the story of Radar and Watson Watt

Missed it and it's not on I-player
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Old 4th Sep 2014, 11:44 pm   #35
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Default Re: Castles in the Sky, the story of Radar and Watson Watt

I'm sure it will be repeated on BBC4 sooner or later. I thought it was all-round well done..anyone spot the make & model of console TV that R-W-W was robbing valves from?

I'd imagine the spitfire footage was modern flying with a bit of digital compositing to produce a squadron in the air!

The test plane of choice was the Handley Page Heyford..a collosal beast which would have provided a decent target, shame they couldn't have CGI'd one in there somewhere, I'd have loved that!

I though the techno level was pitched right. No point boring the non-technical to death! I look forward to an RV Jones Battle of the Beams drama (already seen the docu) which is begging to be made.
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Old 5th Sep 2014, 12:04 am   #36
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Default Re: Castles in the Sky, the story of Radar and Watson Watt

The aerial footage at the end was definitely from the Battle of Britain film, I've watched it so many times!

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Old 5th Sep 2014, 12:14 am   #37
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Default Re: Castles in the Sky, the story of Radar and Watson Watt

The BBC Yearbook of 1933 refers to kilocycles (but mostly wavelength in metres).

The Technical Glossary for BBC Engineers (1943) refers to frequency as being measured in cycles per second. It mentions Hertz (continental) = 1 cycle per second.

According to contemporary quotes of Albert Percival Rowe to Watson-Watt, as written in Dobinson's 'Building Radar' (ISBN978-0-413-77229-9), the talk is about wavelength in metres, rather than frequency in any unit.
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Old 5th Sep 2014, 12:23 am   #38
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Default Re: The Story of Radar and Watson Watt

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Having checked the cast list, I wonder if any mention will be made of Dr. R V Jones?
Alas, no.

Factual accuracy sacrificed on the altar of the media's perception of 'what the viewer wants'.

And so we move on.

Best wishes
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Old 5th Sep 2014, 12:31 am   #39
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Default Re: Castles in the Sky, the story of Radar and Watson Watt

I enjoyed it, and thought it was a good piece of high quality popular entertainment. There were certainly a few eyebrow-raising liberties taken though, sometimes for no obvious reason. Miniature valves first used in prewar TV sets? I don't think so...

I agree that the BoB footage at the end was a bit irritating and suggested lazy production values, though perhaps the budget was a bit tight.
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Old 5th Sep 2014, 12:35 am   #40
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Default Re: Castles in the Sky, the story of Radar and Watson Watt

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I'm sure it will be repeated on BBC4 sooner or later. I thought it was all-round well done..anyone spot the make & model of console TV that R-W-W was robbing valves from?

I'd imagine the spitfire footage was modern flying with a bit of digital compositing to produce a squadron in the air!
There are actually enough airworthy Spitfires today to enable a pretty convincing 'scramble' to be filmed - you can see the majority of them all in the air at the same time just by going to the July 'Flying Legends' airshow at Duxford. When I was there this July (2014) four of them were BoB contemporary Mk1A versions, two having been excavated from their crash sites on French beaches and now restored to flying order.

However, the presence of the HE-111 bombers as well suggests Battle of Britain film footage. The film makers assembled a remarkable temporary 'air force' for the making of the film, which was made at just the right time when there were still quite a few airworthy and potentially airworthy aircraft around. I believe the German aircraft (the Me109s and Heinkels) would have been rebadged Spanish-built versions.
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