A tantalising possibility (how the British Heritage Television Project was born) - Page 3 - UK Vintage Radio Repair and Restoration Discussion Forum

turret_tuner · 13th Aug 2005, 2:00 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Danny

wouldnt we need two txs one for vision and one for sound

That's how it used to be done. As I recall the VSB filter was a bit of plumbing (at Band 3 frequencies anyway, I never saw a Band 1 installation) between the vision tx output and the sound/vision combiner feeding the aerial. I think there was also filtering at this stage to suppress any spurious out of band emissions from the txs.

oldeurope · 13th Aug 2005, 7:54 am

Good morning,
building a TV tx and the filters for the output signal is no problem for me.
Tell me exactly what you need and I'll make you an offer

.

Kind regards
Darius

ppppenguin · 13th Aug 2005, 8:54 am

Gerry's TX has both the sound and vision TXs, all in three 19" rack cabinets. ISTR the vision TX is one side, the sound the other with the control system and "plumbing" in the middle.

Paul Stenning · 13th Aug 2005, 9:00 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Panrock

Agreed. If perchance the BVWS does decide to appoint a working party to look further into this project here's an idea of what it might do.

I should point out that nobody has responded for the BVWS yet, and I do not believe that anynoe has even formally approached the BVWS about it. Certainly it has not been discussed at all by the committee.

I suggest you all stop making assumptions about what the BVWS may do or not do in regard to this until such time as someone has formally stated the BVWS's position.

Panrock · 13th Aug 2005, 11:38 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Stenning

I should point out that nobody has responded for the BVWS yet, and I do not believe that anynoe has even formally approached the BVWS about it. Certainly it has not been discussed at all by the committee.

All that is happening is that some of us are exploring ideas on your internet board, to see if they are totally unrealistic or not. It certainly would be unreasonable to expect the BVWS committee would discuss this topic without even having been approached, and within such a short space of time. That's assuming they would even consider it worth discussing.

Quote:

I suggest you all stop making assumptions about what the BVWS may do or not do in regard to this until such time as someone has formally stated the BVWS's position.

Nobody's attempting to bounce the BVWS into anything. I previously mentioned our society because I considered that such a scheme only have any chance of success with its future backing. But that's also assuming the whole thing would be technically and legally feasible - and that's what this present discussion is about.

Only after things have been thoroughly sounded out and it actually looks like a convincing case can be made, will it be the time for someone to approach the BVWS committee to gauge their reaction.

Steve

Sean Williams · 13th Aug 2005, 1:29 pm

From what I understand of this discusion board, The Committee members of the BVWS monitor topics being discussed here, as such if anything that has already been said, if it was not agreeable would have had some objection before now.

Speaking as a non member it matters not one jot to me if the BVWS wants to discuss the idea or not - at present a group of like minded individuals are looking at a possible historical re-enactment/preservation project, and merely seeing if there would be enough support to take the idea further - we are certainly past the first stage here, there has been a positive response.

I would be more than happy to run this idea past my fellow trustees at CEMT to see if there is any way we could help the project - Like the BVWS it would be a little out of our core interests - BVWS = Wireless, CEMT = RADAR and military comms.

Sorry to be a bore, but I think some of the contributors to this thread are members, and as such I would think they are entitled to speculate a little on where they would like so see their subscriptions used....

Cheers
Sean

turret_tuner · 13th Aug 2005, 1:34 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Stenning

I suggest you all stop making assumptions about what the BVWS may do or not do in regard to this until such time as someone has formally stated the BVWS's position.

Just in case my use of the word "we" in my postings above has been mis-construed, I would like to make it clear that I was referring to the people posting on this thread. Although I am a BVWS member, I am certainly not in any way speaking on behalf of the BVWS nor am I implying a future BVWS position on this matter.

Panrock · 13th Aug 2005, 3:18 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by oldeurope

Good morning,
building a TV tx and the filters for the output signal is no problem for me.
Tell me exactly what you need and I'll make you an offer

.

Kind regards
Darius

Thank you Darius ! Good to know your considerable skills are available.

Steve

Hybrid tellies · 13th Aug 2005, 8:25 pm

Brilliant idea. I just love the idea of a 405 line transmitter being back on air
Down in West Cornwall I use to see Crystal Palace co channeling with Redruth on the old 405 line B1 Channel during lift conditions. I expect we could get AP on B1 here in Bristol providing a large aerial is used and during suitable lift conditions.
Back to reality though.
First OFCOM, they are not in the habit of giving frequencies away, as we have seen over the last few years, frequencies are sold to the highest bidder so barring a miracle we would need a good lotto win.
Second:these days due to the overcrowded radio spectrum any transmitting equipment would need to meet very stringent radiation limits before OFCOM would even think about issuing a licence. As we are talking about using old or home made equipment this could present a few problems.
Third:mast loading, most masts (probably including AP) are loaded to their wind load limits with broadcast,mobile phone aerials, Paging, and many other services. You might well have to settle for another less famous site or indeed somewhere outside London.
I think this idea is certainly worth persuing further and if there is enough of us to put something realistic together then perhaps we should approach the BVWS committee and OFCOM etc.

Hybrid tellies · 13th Aug 2005, 9:33 pm

Just had a further thought on costings. Most of the BBC transmitting sites are now owned by Crown Castle UK, so anyone using these sites would have to pay rent for the aerials on the mast and floor space for the transmitting equipment, plus of course the cost for the programme feed to the transmitter.
When the BBC owned their own transmitters THE RSGB came to an agreement with them over their repeater stations, after the BBC sold off their transmitter network the RSGB had to find alternative sites probably due in no small part to the rent that Crown Castle started to charge them. Perhaps there are other members of the forum which would know more about this.

Panrock · 13th Aug 2005, 9:52 pm

But I wonder if AP itself is also included with Crown Castle?

The key words to present here are Heritage and Occasional.

Useful posts such as Hybrid Tellies' and those from many others go to show what a breadth of knowledge there is out there on this board. We'd need to draw on all this, and the professional-level broadcast engineering skills certain others have too, for this scheme to stand even a chance.

And that's given a following wind, meeting officialdom on a good day, and extremely good luck...

Steve

channel405 · 14th Aug 2005, 10:04 pm

I too would like to add my total support for this idea. I watched the very last local transmission on CH B3 on my Thorn 1400.

On the programming side, I have an edit suite and make programmes (for anoraks like some of us!) so would be very happy to put some modern programming together (for free) for the world's only (official) 405 line transmission! We could do a programme about the 405 line system and all the techie bits, lets face it, we could have lots of "pundits" interviewed, if they don't mind being on camera!

As regards the transmitter and technical side, being based in Mid Wales means I would be out of range and miss out. I know this has probably been asked before, but couldn't the TX from AP also be sent via broadband so anyone across the country could watch? A PC card with a SDI output (rather than trying to get true 405 lines out of the comp video socket of a graphics card which would involve tricky rewriting the card driver) signal in 405 lines could input to the DAC of a Domino converter perhaps so it can be watched on a 405 line telly. No doubt this may invlove a bit of software writing. We could then have a real 405 line network again!

Or am I just talking rubbish-comments from sane people please!!

Regards Tim

Panrock · 15th Aug 2005, 4:49 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by channel405

I too would like to add my total support for this idea. I watched the very last local transmission on CH B3 on my Thorn 1400.

On the programming side, I have an edit suite and make programmes (for anoraks like some of us!) so would be very happy to put some modern programming together (for free) for the world's only (official) 405 line transmission! We could do a programme about the 405 line system and all the techie bits, lets face it, we could have lots of "pundits" interviewed, if they don't mind being on camera!

Yet more useful talent on tap!

Quote:

As regards the transmitter and technical side, being based in Mid Wales means I would be out of range and miss out. I know this has probably been asked before, but couldn't the TX from AP also be sent via broadband so anyone across the country could watch? A PC card with a SDI output (rather than trying to get true 405 lines out of the comp video socket of a graphics card which would involve tricky rewriting the card driver) signal in 405 lines could input to the DAC of a Domino converter perhaps so it can be watched on a 405 line telly. No doubt this may invlove a bit of software writing. We could then have a real 405 line network again!

I do think that if any group of enthusiasts were to support this project, it would have to serve the broad spread of its members. So yes, having this capacity would be highly desirable.

In general though, if we do take this further, my instinct would be to keep our proposal as simple as possible; ie. at this stage focussed on simply getting a temporary transmitting facility up and running for the 70th anniversary. It really all rests on this.

Quote:

Or am I just talking rubbish-comments from sane people please!!

Well clearly an insane one's popped up here... what am I doing? It's 4.48 in the morning.

DoctorWho · 8th Oct 2005, 6:51 pm

I would be only too happy to offer my support for this, whether it be with a soldering iron, making items from my collection available or offering to help by writing letters or any other computer work. This is a first class proposal which I feel would be a wonderful tribute to the pioneering work at AP nearly 70 years ago, and may also help to get some official recognition of the historical importance of AP.

Count me in!

Peter.

13th Aug 2005, 7:54 am	#42
oldeurope Retired Dormant Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Solingen, Germany Posts: 727	Re: A tantalising possibility Good morning, building a TV tx and the filters for the output signal is no problem for me. Tell me exactly what you need and I'll make you an offer. Kind regards Darius

13th Aug 2005, 8:54 am	#43
ppppenguin Retired Dormant Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: North London, UK. Posts: 6,168	Re: A tantalising possibility Gerry's TX has both the sound and vision TXs, all in three 19" rack cabinets. ISTR the vision TX is one side, the sound the other with the control system and "plumbing" in the middle.

13th Aug 2005, 1:29 pm	#46
Sean Williams Dekatron Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: St.Ippolyts, Hitchin, Hertfordshire QRA IO91UW Posts: 3,513	Re: A tantalising possibility From what I understand of this discusion board, The Committee members of the BVWS monitor topics being discussed here, as such if anything that has already been said, if it was not agreeable would have had some objection before now. Speaking as a non member it matters not one jot to me if the BVWS wants to discuss the idea or not - at present a group of like minded individuals are looking at a possible historical re-enactment/preservation project, and merely seeing if there would be enough support to take the idea further - we are certainly past the first stage here, there has been a positive response. I would be more than happy to run this idea past my fellow trustees at CEMT to see if there is any way we could help the project - Like the BVWS it would be a little out of our core interests - BVWS = Wireless, CEMT = RADAR and military comms. Sorry to be a bore, but I think some of the contributors to this thread are members, and as such I would think they are entitled to speculate a little on where they would like so see their subscriptions used.... Cheers Sean __________________ Engineers make things work and have spare bits when finished

13th Aug 2005, 8:25 pm	#49
Hybrid tellies Nonode Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: 1966-1976 Coverack in Cornwall and Helston Cornwall. 1976-present Bristol/Bath area. Posts: 2,943	Re: A tantalising possibility Brilliant idea. I just love the idea of a 405 line transmitter being back on air Down in West Cornwall I use to see Crystal Palace co channeling with Redruth on the old 405 line B1 Channel during lift conditions. I expect we could get AP on B1 here in Bristol providing a large aerial is used and during suitable lift conditions. Back to reality though. First OFCOM, they are not in the habit of giving frequencies away, as we have seen over the last few years, frequencies are sold to the highest bidder so barring a miracle we would need a good lotto win. Second:these days due to the overcrowded radio spectrum any transmitting equipment would need to meet very stringent radiation limits before OFCOM would even think about issuing a licence. As we are talking about using old or home made equipment this could present a few problems. Third:mast loading, most masts (probably including AP) are loaded to their wind load limits with broadcast,mobile phone aerials, Paging, and many other services. You might well have to settle for another less famous site or indeed somewhere outside London. I think this idea is certainly worth persuing further and if there is enough of us to put something realistic together then perhaps we should approach the BVWS committee and OFCOM etc. __________________ Simon BVWS member

13th Aug 2005, 9:33 pm	#50
Hybrid tellies Nonode Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: 1966-1976 Coverack in Cornwall and Helston Cornwall. 1976-present Bristol/Bath area. Posts: 2,943	Re: A tantalising possibility Just had a further thought on costings. Most of the BBC transmitting sites are now owned by Crown Castle UK, so anyone using these sites would have to pay rent for the aerials on the mast and floor space for the transmitting equipment, plus of course the cost for the programme feed to the transmitter. When the BBC owned their own transmitters THE RSGB came to an agreement with them over their repeater stations, after the BBC sold off their transmitter network the RSGB had to find alternative sites probably due in no small part to the rent that Crown Castle started to charge them. Perhaps there are other members of the forum which would know more about this. __________________ Simon BVWS member

13th Aug 2005, 9:52 pm	#51
Panrock Nonode Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Worcestershire, UK. Posts: 2,498	Re: A tantalising possibility But I wonder if AP itself is also included with Crown Castle? The key words to present here are Heritage and Occasional. Useful posts such as Hybrid Tellies' and those from many others go to show what a breadth of knowledge there is out there on this board. We'd need to draw on all this, and the professional-level broadcast engineering skills certain others have too, for this scheme to stand even a chance. And that's given a following wind, meeting officialdom on a good day, and extremely good luck... Steve

14th Aug 2005, 10:04 pm	#52
channel405 Tetrode Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: CH3, Blaen Plwyf Transmitter, Aberystwyth, WALES Posts: 72	Re: A tantalising possibility I too would like to add my total support for this idea. I watched the very last local transmission on CH B3 on my Thorn 1400. On the programming side, I have an edit suite and make programmes (for anoraks like some of us!) so would be very happy to put some modern programming together (for free) for the world's only (official) 405 line transmission! We could do a programme about the 405 line system and all the techie bits, lets face it, we could have lots of "pundits" interviewed, if they don't mind being on camera! As regards the transmitter and technical side, being based in Mid Wales means I would be out of range and miss out. I know this has probably been asked before, but couldn't the TX from AP also be sent via broadband so anyone across the country could watch? A PC card with a SDI output (rather than trying to get true 405 lines out of the comp video socket of a graphics card which would involve tricky rewriting the card driver) signal in 405 lines could input to the DAC of a Domino converter perhaps so it can be watched on a 405 line telly. No doubt this may invlove a bit of software writing. We could then have a real 405 line network again! Or am I just talking rubbish-comments from sane people please!! Regards Tim Last edited by channel405; 14th Aug 2005 at 10:22 pm. Reason: addition

8th Oct 2005, 6:51 pm	#54
DoctorWho Rest in Peace Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Devon Posts: 850	Re: A tantalising possibility I would be only too happy to offer my support for this, whether it be with a soldering iron, making items from my collection available or offering to help by writing letters or any other computer work. This is a first class proposal which I feel would be a wonderful tribute to the pioneering work at AP nearly 70 years ago, and may also help to get some official recognition of the historical importance of AP. Count me in! Peter.