74S571 Non–Tesla – can the TL866 program them or do I need a special programming circ - UK Vintage Radio Repair and Restoration Discussion Forum

Chris55000 · 6th May 2023, 12:20 am

Just a quickie one!

Can the TL866 program non–Tesla 74S571s or do I need a special programmer?

If I need a specially made circuit, can anyone point me in the direction of one please?

The circuit diagram for the G.R. 1689M Digibridge had the dump for the two PROMs used in the sine generator given on the circuit, (Both PROMs are indicated as identical) so I would like to program a pair with a view to making this sine circuit!

Chris Williams

SiriusHardware · 6th May 2023, 9:09 am

Hi Chris, I don't know your programmer that well but it almost certainly does not handle Bipolar fusible-link PROMs of any brand. They are ancient technology now and only the highest end / highest cost modern programmers still support them.

There are only really two brands of 74S571 PROM, the original ones being the National Semiconductor DM74S571. If you have some of these and you just need a one-off set programmed I (and a few other people here) have the capability to programme those and I would certainly be happy to do that for you.

As I believe you may be aware, the Philips / signetics N82S131N and AMD AM27S13 and the Tesla MH74S571 are all pin compatible with the DM74S571 once programmed, but each has its own specific programming regime which has to be directly supported by the programmer.

I can programme any of the other three (non Tesla) types mentioned above for you, if you already have some to hand.

The Tesla device presents a particular difficulty because there is only one current, very high end and very expensive commercially made programmer (sold under several different brand names) which supports it, although efforts are being made to produce a low cost 'hobby' programmer specifically for the Tesla devices.

If you will be building this unit yourself, consider substituting a modern fast EPROM or EEPROM for the PROMs, and then you will be able to programme it yourself.

SiriusHardware · 6th May 2023, 9:28 am

Having looked through the diagram in your OP, a couple of things strike me. The PROM devices appear to be 74S471, rather than 74S571 - unless I'm looking in the wrong place. The design also needs at least two programmable PALs, for which you need both the programming capability (which your TL programmer may have) and the files with which to programme them.

Overall, the design is so heavily dependent on a raft of exotic programmed devices that I would tend to shy away from it to be honest, but maybe you relish the challenge?

Realtime · 6th May 2023, 9:28 am

That's an impressive piece of test equipment. Must have cost a fortune originally.

You've asked about 74S571s (512x4 bit PROM) but the 1689M uses 74S471 parts (256 x 8 bit). Got to say I wasn't even aware of those PROMs. There doesn't seem to be a TESLA 'equivalent' that I can see.

My DATAIO 29B programmer lists some parts in that family but not specifically the 74S471 (it does lists the 74LS471 though) which is strange. As SiriusHardware suggested, if you're building just the sine generator would it not be better to go for a more standard fast PROM such as something from Cypress, say CY7C291-35 (35ns, 2Kx8, 24pin narrow DIP - PROM and EPROM versions available)?

Realtime · 6th May 2023, 9:31 am

Graham, looks like we hit the send button at the exact same moment with the exact same thoughts. Spooky!

SiriusHardware · 6th May 2023, 10:06 am

There aren't many pin compatible substitutes for the DM74S471, that I can see. The 'mainstream' alternative would appear to be the Philips / Signetics N82S135N or N82S135AN, plus there are MMI and Ti equivalents as well.

MMI 6309-1
Ti 18S22

If the thing is to be built from scratch, and I know from his other posts that Chris designs PCBs, it would make much more sense to lay the board out for one of the modern fast EPROM devices you have suggested.

ortek_service · 10th May 2023, 2:38 am

Well if the OP really does want to stick to the originally-used parts, then would need to check that they are all still obtainable (If wanting to make the 'High-Speed' version, then the TMS320E15 could be rather-more problematic, as that has 4K EPROM built into it, which has code-protection readout, so would need a copy of its contents as well as suitable programmer for that).

Although it is nice (and first time I've seen this) of the schematics provider to show all the internal configuration of the PAL's, so can re-create these with originals (if still available). Or maybe substitute a large-enough fast FLASH / (EE)PROM to use as an all-combinations look-up table.
- The Winbond W27C512-45Z 512kbit 45ns DIL EEPROM has successfully been used to replace the Commodore 64's rather unreliable mask-prog'd clone of a Signetics OTP-PLA. And could be had for a bargain around £1 for 2 from China, a few years ago. There are also some UK suppliers, for a bit more, with one even offering to pre-program these to your provided bin/hex file for no extra cost: https://www.laser.com/product_info.p...oducts_id/1977
Another supplier said the TL866-II could program these, even though they have an odd '27' - usually for EPROM - rather than the more conventional '28' for EEPROM / '29' for FLASH prefixes.

Back to 74S471 PROM's, the original Dataman-48 Parallel-Port IC-Programmer does actually support the National Semi DM54571 / DM74S571. As well as the PAL15L8(A) + PAL20L10's they used, from 2/3 manufacturers. Plus (surprisingly), also the TMS320E15. The possible alternative to PROM / PAL's, Winbond W27C512, is also supported on this.
So the Dataman-48XP should be able to program (or readout, to copy) these, that I have set-up on an older Windows-XP PC, I currently still mostly-use
(Upgrading its h/w to still-sold 48UXP USB Model isn't worth the large expense, as have to pay for an expensive software licence to use later still-supported software that does actually run on post-XP Windows)

(The ELNEC-designed Dataman-(4)48Pro(+) - which is USB and software runs on all Windows versions from XP to Win 10/11? - that I have access to - supports all the above, as well - And all without any expensive special custom adaptors or needing an enhanced software support unlock restrictive uses 'credit box').

If the OP needs any of these devices programming / reading-out, then I'm happy to do this for free, if they post these to me with return S.A.E etc. ('Large' stamp required for DIL IC's, as will be just over 5mm thickness limit, without squashing pins - even though < 100g weight)

6th May 2023, 9:09 am	#2
SiriusHardware Dekatron Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Newcastle, Tyne and Wear, UK. Posts: 11,556	Re: 74S571 Non–Tesla – can the TL866 program them or do I need a special programming Hi Chris, I don't know your programmer that well but it almost certainly does not handle Bipolar fusible-link PROMs of any brand. They are ancient technology now and only the highest end / highest cost modern programmers still support them. There are only really two brands of 74S571 PROM, the original ones being the National Semiconductor DM74S571. If you have some of these and you just need a one-off set programmed I (and a few other people here) have the capability to programme those and I would certainly be happy to do that for you. As I believe you may be aware, the Philips / signetics N82S131N and AMD AM27S13 and the Tesla MH74S571 are all pin compatible with the DM74S571 once programmed, but each has its own specific programming regime which has to be directly supported by the programmer. I can programme any of the other three (non Tesla) types mentioned above for you, if you already have some to hand. The Tesla device presents a particular difficulty because there is only one current, very high end and very expensive commercially made programmer (sold under several different brand names) which supports it, although efforts are being made to produce a low cost 'hobby' programmer specifically for the Tesla devices. If you will be building this unit yourself, consider substituting a modern fast EPROM or EEPROM for the PROMs, and then you will be able to programme it yourself.

6th May 2023, 9:28 am	#3
SiriusHardware Dekatron Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Newcastle, Tyne and Wear, UK. Posts: 11,556	Re: 74S571 Non–Tesla – can the TL866 program them or do I need a special programming Having looked through the diagram in your OP, a couple of things strike me. The PROM devices appear to be 74S471, rather than 74S571 - unless I'm looking in the wrong place. The design also needs at least two programmable PALs, for which you need both the programming capability (which your TL programmer may have) and the files with which to programme them. Overall, the design is so heavily dependent on a raft of exotic programmed devices that I would tend to shy away from it to be honest, but maybe you relish the challenge?

6th May 2023, 9:31 am	#5
Realtime Hexode Join Date: Jan 2021 Location: Ashford, Kent, UK Posts: 318	Re: 74S571 Non–Tesla – can the TL866 program them or do I need a special programming Graham, looks like we hit the send button at the exact same moment with the exact same thoughts. Spooky!

6th May 2023, 10:06 am	#6
SiriusHardware Dekatron Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Newcastle, Tyne and Wear, UK. Posts: 11,556	Re: 74S571 Non–Tesla – can the TL866 program them or do I need a special programming There aren't many pin compatible substitutes for the DM74S471, that I can see. The 'mainstream' alternative would appear to be the Philips / Signetics N82S135N or N82S135AN, plus there are MMI and Ti equivalents as well. MMI 6309-1 Ti 18S22 If the thing is to be built from scratch, and I know from his other posts that Chris designs PCBs, it would make much more sense to lay the board out for one of the modern fast EPROM devices you have suggested.

10th May 2023, 2:38 am	#7
ortek_service Octode Join Date: May 2018 Location: Northampton, Northamptonshire, UK. Posts: 1,440	Re: 74S571 Non–Tesla – can the TL866 program them or do I need a special programming Well if the OP really does want to stick to the originally-used parts, then would need to check that they are all still obtainable (If wanting to make the 'High-Speed' version, then the TMS320E15 could be rather-more problematic, as that has 4K EPROM built into it, which has code-protection readout, so would need a copy of its contents as well as suitable programmer for that). Although it is nice (and first time I've seen this) of the schematics provider to show all the internal configuration of the PAL's, so can re-create these with originals (if still available). Or maybe substitute a large-enough fast FLASH / (EE)PROM to use as an all-combinations look-up table. - The Winbond W27C512-45Z 512kbit 45ns DIL EEPROM has successfully been used to replace the Commodore 64's rather unreliable mask-prog'd clone of a Signetics OTP-PLA. And could be had for a bargain around £1 for 2 from China, a few years ago. There are also some UK suppliers, for a bit more, with one even offering to pre-program these to your provided bin/hex file for no extra cost: https://www.laser.com/product_info.p...oducts_id/1977 Another supplier said the TL866-II could program these, even though they have an odd '27' - usually for EPROM - rather than the more conventional '28' for EEPROM / '29' for FLASH prefixes. Back to 74S471 PROM's, the original Dataman-48 Parallel-Port IC-Programmer does actually support the National Semi DM54571 / DM74S571. As well as the PAL15L8(A) + PAL20L10's they used, from 2/3 manufacturers. Plus (surprisingly), also the TMS320E15. The possible alternative to PROM / PAL's, Winbond W27C512, is also supported on this. So the Dataman-48XP should be able to program (or readout, to copy) these, that I have set-up on an older Windows-XP PC, I currently still mostly-use (Upgrading its h/w to still-sold 48UXP USB Model isn't worth the large expense, as have to pay for an expensive software licence to use later still-supported software that does actually run on post-XP Windows) (The ELNEC-designed Dataman-(4)48Pro(+) - which is USB and software runs on all Windows versions from XP to Win 10/11? - that I have access to - supports all the above, as well - And all without any expensive special custom adaptors or needing an enhanced software support unlock restrictive uses 'credit box'). If the OP needs any of these devices programming / reading-out, then I'm happy to do this for free, if they post these to me with return S.A.E etc. ('Large' stamp required for DIL IC's, as will be just over 5mm thickness limit, without squashing pins - even though < 100g weight)