Looking for WWII bomb bay footage

[NickG0HIK]

Sorry for being a bit off topic.

I am in the process of restoring some WWII Heavy bomber equipment.

My main objective is to have it all working. The radio's and intercoms etc are easy to show working. But some of the misc equipment is a bit different and are going to need simulators building.

One of the items being worked on at the moment is a Drift Recorder. I would like to show the ground moving under the aircraft. So ideally I need several minutes of bomb bay WWII vintage video, that I can display on a monitor under the Drift Recorder.

I wonder if anyone knows a source, it would be helpful.

Thanks

Nick

The TV series "Most Secret War" has some footage through a bombsight. Available on DVD. I am a keen collector of WII films (the proper black and white ones) and know there are other clips too, I'll let my mind think about this for a bit. Also the Spielberg film about a bomber completing all its trips has some colour footage of said I seem to recall (too modern and fanciful for my collection). I suppose you could make your own using a drone these days.

Intrigued I had a look at youtube... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LUVMC9lNgMU

[The Philpott]

A drone would be too directionally unstable and a cam rigged on a Cessna would be too slow and speeding the footage up by x2.5 would be too obvious... Also lesser problems like insufficient altitude to be convincing. During the B of B film fields with bright yellow oilseed rape had to be avoided like the plague since it was a post-war crop (although for this application it could be rendered monochrome i suppose)

Overall looks like period footage is needed..

Unfortunately but understandably the IWM would probably charge for this sort of thing.

Dave

[NickG0HIK]

Thanks for the ideas.

I've got "The Most Secret War" somewhere, I'll have to dig it out, it must be about time that I watched it again. I don't recall suitable footage in it though.

Thanks for the You Tube link, that does not seem suitable, although an interesting film, (I might have to get a bomb sight at some point) there is not enough detail in the shots to enable reference points to be made.

If you think of any other resources, please do let me know.

Now then, making my own film might not be out of the question.

There is a gliding club near by, I might have to make some inquires if nothing suitable turns ups. They should know the sort of thing I'm after too.

I'm not particularly bothered about it being modern although it would be nice if it was vintage, but I am more after getting the feel of how the kit works rather than making everything completely authentic.

although it would be nice if it was vintage

To look like it was "in the day" with some poor chap looking down the bomb sight hi-res colour is the only way. Take the new film "They Shall Not Grow Old" vintage WWI films reproduced in colour, very good (and quite moving).

[NickG0HIK]

OK, I'll put that on my Christmas list.

Nick

The film "They Shall Not Grow Old" was on BBC Iplayer for a week, last week unfortunately.

[woodchips]

What about the ITV series The World at War?

[M0FYA Andy]

Maybe I'm being too pedantic, but the view through the Drift Recorder and through the Bombsight would not be the same thing. The view through the Drift Recorder would be vertically down to the ground beneath, whereas the bomb aimer would be looking ahead of the aircraft to where the aiming point was located on the ground. When the bombs are released they have the same forward velocity as the aircraft, so they land at a point ahead of the aircraft at the time of release.

What is needed here is a film of the ground vertically below the aircraft, not the view through the bombsight.

Andy

[G4YVM David]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7LH-Si_S3TE

Time 1:35


Have you seen this book?

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...20film&f=false


David

[jamesinnewcastl]

Hi

A difficult thing to find. A long film just of the ground in 1940 in colour, even in Monochrome. What hieght? I imagine it would have the ground moving slowly so the drift can be noted.

I've had the same problem for my animation of a Stirling - worse I need the whole world to go by - here's an attempt I made ages ago - hand coloured map - badly hand coloured!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5EM8f2VT2eE

What about the old trick of a map between two rollers? Just video it.

You can go back in time on Google earth and get an aerial view in mono of the UK at the time?

Keep us informed I'd like to know how you do!


Cheers
James

[NickG0HIK]

Thanks for that, unfortunately, it not stable enough and it's too short.

I'll look out for a paper copy of that book.

Nick

Originally Posted by G4YVM David

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7LH-Si_S3TE

Thanks for that, not stable enough and not long enough.


Have you seen this book?

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...20film&f=false

No I havn't, it's american, but is interesting, I'll keep an eye out for a paper copy, thanks.

David

[NickG0HIK]

The first idea was a paper map, as that is probably the sort of thing that may have been used at the time.
But thinking about it, I would be happy with some colour footage, as that is what the navigator would actually have seen.
Yes, initially I thought it would be a simple task, but most camera shots seemed to have been panned, I need it to be stable.

Nick

Originally Posted by jamesinnewcastl

Hi

A difficult thing to find. A long film just of the ground in 1940 in colour, even in Monochrome. What hieght? I imagine it would have the ground moving slowly so the drift can be noted.

I've had the same problem for my animation of a Stirling - worse I need the whole world to go by - here's an attempt I made ages ago - hand coloured map - badly hand coloured!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5EM8f2VT2eE

What about the old trick of a map between two rollers? Just video it.

You can go back in time on Google earth and get an aerial view in mono of the UK at the time?

Keep us informed I'd like to know how you do!


Cheers
James

[NickG0HIK]

Originally Posted by M0FYA Andy

Maybe I'm being too pedantic, but the view through the Drift Recorder and through the Bombsight would not be the same thing. The view through the Drift Recorder would be vertically down to the ground beneath, whereas the bomb aimer would be looking ahead of the aircraft to where the aiming point was located on the ground. When the bombs are released they have the same forward velocity as the aircraft, so they land at a point ahead of the aircraft at the time of release.

What is needed here is a film of the ground vertically below the aircraft, not the view through the bombsight.

Andy

Yes Andy that's exactly what I need, film straight down. I mentioned just a view from the Bomb bay, not the bomb sight, or that's what I meant anyway.

I have thought about the local gliding club, but all their videos appear to be taken through the canopy, they would need to some how mount the camera under the fuselage.

Nick

[ms660]

For immediate (ish) post war photographic stills there is somewhere knocking around thousands and thousands of aerial photos of the UK taken from converted WW2 fighter planes such as Spitfires etc, I happened to get a good copy of one in particular that I was interested in (the land and its use immediate (ish) post war) I found the photo and got a copy about 20 years or so ago, I could see cattle in the fields and individual tree canopies.... For maps now I always use the National Library of Scotland website:

https://maps.nls.uk/geo/find/#zoom=5...&b=1&point=0,0

….a tremendous resource for old O.S. maps for the UK.

For up to date maps HMG's Magic map website is the one I use:

https://magic.defra.gov.uk/MagicMap.aspx

….various layers can be selected and added to the map for the area of interest.

Using the above, some of the old electricity related structures/buildings (including radio) can be traced where Google images can't reveal.

Lawrence.

[jamesinnewcastl]

Hi

I can make this less jerky, slow it down, speed it up, closer up , further away and probably in colour but that would be modern.

Ignore the first bit

https://youtu.be/tRkOpTByPFY

Is this the sort of thing you want - not sure what you mean by 'stable'.

Cheers
James

[NickG0HIK]

Thanks Lawrence,
What a fantastic resource.
It will take some time to learn to "Drive" both of those web sites, but I've been able to find a CHL site already from one of the 1950's maps.
I have been looking for the exact location, many folk did not believe me that there was a Chain Home station in Barrow-in-Furness.
Nick

Originally Posted by ms660

For immediate (ish) post war photographic stills there is somewhere knocking around thousands and thousands of aerial photos of the UK taken from converted WW2 fighter planes such as Spitfires etc, I happened to get a good copy of one in particular that I was interested in (the land and its use immediate (ish) post war) I found the photo and got a copy about 20 years or so ago, I could see cattle in the fields and individual tree canopies.... For maps now I always use the National Library of Scotland website:

https://maps.nls.uk/geo/find/#zoom=5...&b=1&point=0,0

….a tremendous resource for old O.S. maps for the UK.

For up to date maps HMG's Magic map website is the one I use:

https://magic.defra.gov.uk/MagicMap.aspx

….various layers can be selected and added to the map for the area of interest.

Using the above, some of the old electricity related structures/buildings (including radio) can be traced where Google images can't reveal.

Lawrence.

[NickG0HIK]

Hi James,

That looks to be exactly the sort of thing I am wanting.

How is that done ?

I'm not too sure if that footage shows any drift, I'll have to get one of my buddy's to look at it.

Another possible option is to maybe use Google earth to some how create the required footage.

Originally Posted by jamesinnewcastl

Hi

I can make this less jerky, slow it down, speed it up, closer up , further away and probably in colour but that would be modern.

Ignore the first bit

https://youtu.be/tRkOpTByPFY

Is this the sort of thing you want - not sure what you mean by 'stable'.

Cheers
James

[jamesinnewcastl]

Hi Nick

The footage is simply Google Earth Pro with the 'movement' icon in the top right clicked close to the centre which causes the map to traverse slowly and consistantly.

Direction? Just click the icon at the angle that you like to move - choose your drift angle - you can even change heading as it goes along - I just went random.

If you get the right video manuipulation program you may be able to rotate the image so that you can 'drift' while moving in any direction - currently you would need to be flying North, but is that a problem?

Zoom in or out to select your height.

Move the time icon to select the year - not a great choice of years, but 1945 is there. Not all of the UK is mapped.

The image is captured using 'snag it', a cheap program where you just select an area of the screen you wish to capture and just say 'go'. The jerking is because snagit needs to record at a higher frame rate than I had set - but you could just video the screen (hopefully without any interference patterns!). It should be easy enough to clip the 'end bits' that might be a bit of a scrabble.

Repeat play would be set on the application you use to display it.

I'm not sure that there will be enough expanse of the 1945 map for your needs but that would be for your experimentation I guess.

Cheers
James

[NickG0HIK]

Thanks for all the pointers James,

I've loaded up Google Earth Pro and recorded a trip to my home using a camera looking at the screen.
I've tilted the camera a few degrees to hopefully simulate the drift.

I'm going to get my mate to have a look at it and see if he thinks it will work with the drift recorder.

Do you know how to remove the labels to transport and towns in Google earth Pro?

Nick

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRQk...ature=youtu.be