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Old 25th May 2018, 10:52 am   #101
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Default Re: TV Detector Vans

There would always have been paper records. Without them how could renewal notification post cards have been sent out?

This meant that detector vans only had to check addresses which weren't shown as having a licence.
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Old 25th May 2018, 10:58 am   #102
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Default Re: TV Detector Vans

That is certainly how it works now, if a licence is not showing at an address then there is a good chance of a call around.

Never happened to me but I know someone who did not have or want a TV but they came calling.
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Old 25th May 2018, 11:22 am   #103
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Default Re: TV Detector Vans

Wondering how the early 50's detector vans went on with TV makers using different IF frequencies before 34.65/38.15 became standard? Did they ever have a radio detector van?
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Old 25th May 2018, 2:14 pm   #104
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Default Re: TV Detector Vans

Quote:
Originally Posted by colly0410 View Post
Wondering how the early 50's detector vans went on with TV makers using different IF frequencies before 34.65/38.15 became standard? Did they ever have a radio detector van?
Decades ago I could drive up my street with my perfectly normal FM car radio tuned to about 100MHz and hear the local oscillators of several sets tuned to Radio 2 as I drove past.

Some of them even had Jimmy Young et al faintly modulated on the carrier by valve, and maybe tuning-gang microphony.
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Old 25th May 2018, 2:46 pm   #105
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Default Re: TV Detector Vans

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A lot of it was done with a small TV in a car and visual comparison between the program on the set and the variation of the shadows on the curtains of the home under investigation.
The vans with big aerials were mostly for show and had small aerials for doing signal strength testing while they were out there on visual duty.
So that's how they knew you were watching Columbo!
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Old 25th May 2018, 2:56 pm   #106
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Default Re: TV Detector Vans

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Originally Posted by HamishBoxer View Post
Never happened to me but I know someone who did not have or want a TV but they came calling.
An ex- colleague of mine (no, not the one on this forum) was a keen non-TV person and after getting exasperated at the licence enforcement people's rather heavy handed and incessant approaches, got them in court for harassment, and won!

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Old 25th May 2018, 3:35 pm   #107
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Default Re: TV Detector Vans

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Originally Posted by colly0410 View Post

Did they ever have a radio detector van?
How about this one?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct...truck_1927.jpg
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Old 25th May 2018, 4:30 pm   #108
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Default Re: TV Detector Vans

I remember reading about a Scot getting an injunction against the licencing authority: perhaps it was your colleague. One of my former colleagues won a court action against TV licencing when they refused (on directions from a government minister) to let him renew his TV licence early: it was a time when there was a large increase and it was cheaper to forego the remainder of the term on your old licence.
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Old 25th May 2018, 6:59 pm   #109
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Default Re: TV Detector Vans

I wonder if the precursor were the detector vans mentioned in Peter Wright's spycatcher book during WW2 for detecting illegal recievers/transmitters. If memory serves me right they found out that if you sent out a signal at the right frequency the spy's set would reradiate a squawk back to the van and this was how they located some. Whether you could do the same with TV receivers is beyond my knowledge.
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Old 25th May 2018, 7:03 pm   #110
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Default Re: TV Detector Vans

I don't think any of us would be in much doubt that detector vans were technically able to detect that a TV was in use in particular premises.

But that could not, and would not, be put forward evidentially in court in an attempt to prove a case where an occupant denied an offence. The defendant is entitled to advanced disclosure of the evidence that will be put forward by the prosecution. Evidence that they don't have a licence is easy to prove, but without an admission, evidence that they possess and watch a TV is quite another matter and a detector van is no help in that regard.

How would the licensing authority be able to show (to the criminal standard of proof - 'beyond a reasonable doubt' - supported by an independent calibration report on the accuracy and effectiveness of the detection equipment to show that it was working properly at the time that the alleged offence was committed), that an offence had indeed been committed? They wouldn't - it would never get that far.

All that the presence of a detector van could ever do would be to cause an occupant with a guilty mind to believe that the game was up and to admit the offence. The presence of the van might also 'put the frighteners' on other evaders who see it in the street and perhaps induce them to get a licence pronto.

Enforcement Officers, (Police Officers too) do not have a right of entry without a magistrates' warrant (which would not be forthcoming for such a purpose), and whoever answers the door is not compelled to identify themselves nor to answer any questions or make any admissions or denials. If they say 'go away - I don't wish to speak to you', that's that, and there are countless youtube videos of anarchic individuals who do just that, and derive perverse pleasure from so doing.

There is no requirement in law for anyone to incriminate themselves.

The reality is that invariably whoever answers the door will be compliant and will allow access to Enforcement Officers who - having identified themselves - will politely say: "may we come in to have a chat with you about your TV licence?" (which they know doesn't exist), then say: "can you show us your TV licence please?" and of course they can't. If the Enforcement officers see a TV in working order coupled to an aerial, that's likely to secure an admission that the set is being used without a licence.

For the avoidance of doubt, I'm not condoning licence evasion - I'm just making the point that however technically effective TV detector vans may be, they're of no practical use evidentially to prove a contested case in court, and never could have been.
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Old 25th May 2018, 7:34 pm   #111
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Default Re: TV Detector Vans

Quote:
Originally Posted by David G4EBT View Post
How would the licensing authority be able to show (to the criminal standard of proof - 'beyond a reasonable doubt' - supported by an independent calibration report on the accuracy and effectiveness of the detection equipment to show that it was working properly at the time that the alleged offence was committed), that an offence had indeed been committed? They wouldn't - it would never get that far.
If that were true no one would ever be convicted as a result of evidence from a speed gun, speed camera, breath tester, tyre pressure gauge or tyre tread depth gauge.

From what I remember the vans were equipped with a periscope linked to the directional aerial. There was a camera arrangement which took a picture which showed the view through the periscope, ie the suspect's house, along with a view of an oscilloscope trace.

Following the usual test case this was deemed to be sufficient evidence.
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Old 25th May 2018, 7:46 pm   #112
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Default Re: TV Detector Vans

I'm sure I've seen it officially documented somewhere that there has never been a case in history in the UK of someone being prosecuted from detector van evidence alone, as it can't be used.
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Old 25th May 2018, 7:48 pm   #113
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Default Re: TV Detector Vans

I hope this won't be deemed too political (please delete if it is) but my daughter has recently been fined £900 after she inadvertently let her quarterly TV licence payments lapse.

Seems a bit steep relative to the severity of the offence.
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Old 15th Jan 2019, 10:00 pm   #114
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Default TV detector vans

There has been an article in todays Telegraph news paper saying that tv detector vans are a myth , something to do with a leaked document.
I always thought they were for real but never believed they could detect an unlicensed tv in a block of flats.
Does anyone know anything about this subject ?

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Old 15th Jan 2019, 10:55 pm   #115
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Default Re: TV Detector Vans

The rumor was that they could detect the TV Tuners local oscillator signal and get a DF fixing from the two roof mounted aerials, how successful this would be, against a licence evader who lived on the 23rd floor of Nelson Mandela Towers, with or with out the lift working, I would not like to guess.
Their was a rumor they had portable equipment as well, but only a rumor.
I thing most visits from the Detector Van were based on intelligence info.
Most people I know had a colour set but kept the Mono licence, alough, there was a rumor in the 70`s they could detect the 4.33 Mhz ref osc ?
I wonder how much radiated signal they was from the local osc in a tuner, not a lot I would guess.
I have seen a restored Commer Detector van at one of the Commercial Vehicle Rallies, can`t remember which one, if you see it and its complete with the original equipment, it would be worth an informed inspection .
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Old 16th Jan 2019, 12:05 am   #116
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Default Re: TV Detector Vans

Be interesting today. In olden days ,the statement might be that a detector van detected that a set in a premises was tuned ( by virtue of detection of an IF ) to say BBC1. But today, all that IF will tell them is that you have a set tuned to MUX PSB1/BBCA.
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Old 16th Jan 2019, 12:31 am   #117
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Default Re: TV Detector Vans

It was easy enough to have a van with a TV in it so that you could compare the modulated light escaping through the curtains with that of the TV in the van.
It was easy to work out what program they were watching.
People never had video recorders in the hey day of the TV detector van.
The shops were not allowed to sell TVs without getting the address of the buyer.
I can remember a guy who managed to get a clean set in the 1970s.
He was at the counter with the set next to him when he dumped the cash on the counter and rushed off with his new set before they could get his address.
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Old 16th Jan 2019, 1:02 am   #118
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Default Re: TV Detector Vans

I don't know if it's a problem with Forum Archiving or a failure to search by Robin but like AKAI 4000 Tape Recorder Cams, "I've Just Bought a Record Player" and RF Modulators [use an old VCR] over the years, this subject has a very long history on here unless it's been deleted [see my recent comments on Stickies]. I particularly recall that, just when it appeared to be established that it was all a myth, people posted to say they had worked on the vans or knew someone who had.

The info about the thuggish attitude of the licensing authority, on the other hand, can be readily proven. It's a "Bobbies Job" really [if you know what I mean] ie getting paid a lot of money to chase a few people and I mean a lot of money re the organisation! Of course that was at least a decade ago and with the general monetisation of the BBC output now, it may well be a lot worse. I should say that I pay the license fee-still cheap even now and support the staff who keep it going despite the management, although I think it should come out of general taxation [like Education]. License payers are consulted [occasionally when it suits] but not on this sort of topic! The original idea was that "Nation Shall Speak Unto Nation" No Charge!

Dave W

[I hope to "goodness" your daughter didn't actually pay that fine Phil?]

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Old 16th Jan 2019, 2:34 am   #119
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Default Re: TV Detector Vans

I have attached a selection of Wireless World articles and items on the subject of GPO detector vans. These may be pertinent to the thread.


Cheers,
Attached Files
File Type: pdf WW 196302 p.71ff GPO Detector Vans.pdf (1.89 MB, 116 views)
File Type: pdf WW 195203 p.104 GPO Detector Vans.pdf (1.49 MB, 102 views)
File Type: pdf WW 195410 p.476 GPO Detector Vans.pdf (344.5 KB, 87 views)
File Type: pdf WW 196207 p.311 GPO Detector Vans.pdf (570.2 KB, 91 views)
File Type: pdf WW 196908 p.358 GPO Detector Vans.pdf (1.14 MB, 90 views)
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Old 16th Jan 2019, 12:32 pm   #120
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Default Re: TV Detector Vans

I certainly concur with the points that have been raised by others regarding the difficulty of precise location of a radio-emitting source, particularly in built-up areas, and also the whole legal shakiness and pertinence of such evidence. I've long wondered if the whole "TV detector van" business was something of a cover story that started in an era when "reds under the bed" fear was at a slightly hysterical height and governments were more entitled and busy-bodying than they would get away with being now.

PS I'm in no way a conspiracy theorist- indeed, I generally find such people to be objects of derision/pity, but there are many past cases, "manganese nodules", "common cold unit" etc. etc. where cover stories were concocted to try and allay disquiet about public-profile activity.
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