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Old 3rd Mar 2020, 7:20 pm   #41
barrymagrec
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Default Re: "Technically augmented stereo"

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So far as I know the Animals House of The Rising Sun was a one take mono recording, I think there was a fair amount of wow in the original 45 rpm pressings.
Recorded at Kingsway Recorders in...Kingsway - basement studio under an an office block - probably not there now.
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Old 3rd Mar 2020, 9:25 pm   #42
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Default Re: "Technically augmented stereo"

Not a method of creating pseudo-stereo as such, but one of the early contenders for stereo broadcast encoding, the Percival system used a single audio channel which was steered between left and right by a control signal derived from transient information. It didn't work either - it was capable of throwing standing listeners flat on their backs by disturbing the ears' balancing mechanism - those who weren't violently sick. The most comical episode was the attempted encoding of the start of the King's College Christmas service, where the boy soprano's reverberation confused the detection circuit and caused him to oscillate between left and right at up to 16Hz...
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Old 3rd Mar 2020, 10:37 pm   #43
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Default Re: "Technically augmented stereo"

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Recorded at Kingsway Recorders in...Kingsway - basement studio under an an office block - probably not there now.
At that time (1964) the studio was called De Lane Lea, which is quite famous in the annals of rock, as they also recorded the Rolling Stones in 1963 and Jimi Hendrix and the Beatles in 1967. At the time of "House of the rising sun" they had mono and two-track machines, so presumably the mono was used - it was cheaper.
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Old 3rd Mar 2020, 11:36 pm   #44
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Default Re: "Technically augmented stereo"

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I think 'Nights in White Satin' was one of the first 45's to be issued in stereo in the UK?
Depends what you mean by 45s. There were lots of 45rpm stereo classical EPs issued on labels like Decca, HMV and Philips in the UK long before 1967. Remember that stereo on vinyl started in 1958 in the UK.
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Old 4th Mar 2020, 12:32 am   #45
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I have often thought that at least with simple music you ought to be able to get a neural network to recognise the individual instruments. For example I was recently processing a record by Bar Trio, a German group from the 1930s. The instruments involved were an accordion, a guitar and a piano. They all have their own distinctive sounds. I thought that if you could create say a midi file for each instrument then you could get sound fonts for the original instruments and mix them however you wanted. I don't know whether I'll live long enough to get around to trying it.
Tim has already mentioned Izotope's Music Rebalance feature which does this amazingly well on certain sources - especially voices. I get the impression that they spent more development effort on separating out voices than other instruments on the initial version but I'm hoping that subsequent versions will see the same effort directed towards other instruments. It is already possible to isolate other sounds manually with spectral editing (I've done it with an organ part which was too loud on a recording) but this is very laborious and it would probably take weeks to do one song.

I understand that there is also quite a bit of research being carried out into separating out voices in a crowd - the fruits of which will hopefully spill over into more musical applications.
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Old 4th Mar 2020, 2:52 am   #46
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I agree about mint shellac records.As a teenager ( 1956) I had a vacation job in an amusment arcade. They changed the juke box from a78' to a 45's machine whilst I was there. I "rescued" all the redundant 78's. The "B" sides of these records were unplayed and were surprisingly low noise.
Yes low noise compared to the A sides which I guess in the jukebox had been hammered!

Microgroove 33 RPM records were possible because vinyl was quieter than shellac.

Here's a recording made in the 30's where the original 78 metal master has survived. In preparing it for rerelease on CD the engineers actually pressed a new vinyl 78 RPM disc from the original, to avoid extra noise buildup resulting from a shellac disc. Then they digitised that.


https://youtu.be/2UgduNjnPOQ

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Old 4th Mar 2020, 8:17 am   #47
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YES! Mister speaker!

It seems I have encouraged some interest in I suppose early stereo recordings. In the latest age poll, we "mostly" fit into the late 50's, early 60's era, With apologies for those with far greater experience than I.

I have a modest record collection and am somewhat of an audiophool, as I have admitted to many times previously.

I have an almost MINT boxed set of "The Seekers" , "A world of their own". I broke the cellophane and played them for the first time. It's totally mono.

I have "bragged" about my piddly little 6BW6 push/pull stereo that makes "7 watts RMS" on the test bench, with a tailwind, and it points downhill.

Mono is in fact very little different to stereo, If it's in fact a GOOD recording that hasn't been flogged by record munchers, AKA the stackers from the 1950's, mono is as fine as stereo!!.

My original post was in regard to a specific recording, that I was unaware of as being "rare" (Thanks Craig).

On a fine summer evening, with eyes closed, a good mono recording does give up its secrets! At least , can hear the placement of the musicians in the recording. I cannot vouch for reverb of the various players, but I can hear their positions on stage/studio. I will state that this only works for "live" or full time recordings.

It doesn't work for studio remix/rehack recordings.

I am very happy and pleased that there are many of us "monophiles" still in existence.

Joe
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Old 4th Mar 2020, 9:38 am   #48
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Short video of the EMT 140 plate reverb, didn’t realise they were so big.

https://youtu.be/HEmJpxCvp9M
We had three of these at LWT, one for each of the main production studios.
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Old 4th Mar 2020, 9:48 am   #49
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I have an Elvis Presley LP on UK RCA label which was a re-issue of an original Mono LP and described as Electronically processed for stereo - at least I think that is what it said and the sound certainly is full of echo. Not pleasant to listen to when compared to the mono original.
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Old 4th Mar 2020, 10:07 am   #50
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Default Re: "Technically augmented stereo"

I also have a Mario Lanza LP which has had similar treatment. I much prefer the mono version.
This is very interesting reading, never realised how complicated it could be.
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Old 4th Mar 2020, 10:08 am   #51
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The term I have seen most is "Electronically Re-Processed for Stereo". Thank goodness for the (rarely used) Mono-Stereo switching option on some amplfiers!
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Old 4th Mar 2020, 10:20 am   #52
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What is real stereo? Nowadays instruments are recorded individually on a multi-track recorder at different times and maybe even in different places. (Remember Ebony and Ivory where supposedly Stevie Wonder and Paul McCartney never even met). Everything is then cobbled together by a mixing engineer to produce the final mix. The sound field you hear existed only in his head and never in reality. (If you hear Ian Anderson singing front right and his flute playing rear left you'll know what I mean). In that respect I guess that whatever you make out of a mono recording is just as stereo as anything else although the process is admittedly much less flexible.

I have often thought that at least with simple music you ought to be able to get a neural network to recognise the individual instruments. For example I was recently processing a record by Bar Trio, a German group from the 1930s. The instruments involved were an accordion, a guitar and a piano. They all have their own distinctive sounds. I thought that if you could create say a midi file for each instrument then you could get sound fonts for the original instruments and mix them however you wanted. I don't know whether I'll live long enough to get around to trying it.
Real Stereo, to my mind can be experienced by playing some of the early stereo recordings made by EMI prior to about 1962. They employed a simple microphone technique based on the principles of Alan Blumlein in the early 1930's. Only two microphones were used in 1957, both high quality ribbon types with figure of 8 pickup patterns. The microphones were suspended one above the other with the lobes of maximum pick up mutually at right angles and at 45 degrees to the sound stage.

The aim was to achieve a point source recording. The EMI demonstration disc SDD1 is a good example and the Beeching recording of Scherherezade ASD251. It is worthwhile seeking out good examples of the originals. Later "reprints" seem to be on lower quality vinyl. I think there are probably CD transfers around too.
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Old 4th Mar 2020, 10:25 am   #53
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Several re-issues of classic albums on CD have the original mono and then the "stereo" versions (whatever that might mean) back-to-back as they fit quite neatly into the space available. Cynics might say that it caters for completists who will already have the original version! Examples are 'The Kinks Are The Village Green Preservation Society' and Love's 'Forever Changes'. In both cases the mono version is superior IMHO.

Famously, of course, Phil Spector only recorded in mono in the Sixties (I hope you all are wearing your 'Back To Mono' button badges), though there are some reprocessed versions out there such as River Deep; Mountain High and A Christmas Gift to You, that I doubt had his approval. I'd be interested in knowing how his Seventies stereo recordings were made, such as Dion's 'Born to be With You' and the eccentric 'Death of a Ladies' Man' by Leonard Cohen (guns optional). The band Starsailor recorded a couple of tracks with him in the Nineties and said they were amazed he was still using his original, presumably mono, equipment.
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Old 4th Mar 2020, 10:41 am   #54
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Default Re: "Technically augmented stereo"

The only record converted to stereo from mono that I have is "Manhattan Tower" by Gordon Jenkins which I bought in New York in 1967. I still have the record although like many others the LP can be heard on YouTube these days. The "stereo"works quite well with the orchestrations and sung and spoken dialogue.

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Old 4th Mar 2020, 12:34 pm   #55
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Default Re: "Technically augmented stereo"

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Several re-issues of classic albums on CD have the original mono and then the "stereo" versions (whatever that might mean) back-to-back as they fit quite neatly into the space available. Cynics might say that it caters for completists who will already have the original version! Examples are 'The Kinks Are The Village Green Preservation Society' and Love's 'Forever Changes'. In both cases the mono version is superior IMHO.
Certainly in the case of the Beatles, as late as the White Album more effort was expended on the mono mix than the stereo, which was made afer the mono mix was approved and was supposed to match it closely. "I Am The Walrus" was originally mixed in mono, and for years afterwards every stereo issue flipped from a multitrack stereo mix to fake stereo at "sitting in an english garden" because the radio reception was fed live into the original mono mix and would have been difficult to reconstruct. I have, however, heard a more recent mix (could have been on "Love") which is a proper stereo mix throughout - the recognisable radio dialogue is from a BBC production of "King Lear", so no doubt the clean material exists.
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Old 4th Mar 2020, 1:13 pm   #56
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Default Re: "Technically augmented stereo"

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Famously, of course, Phil Spector only recorded in mono in the Sixties (I hope you all are wearing your 'Back To Mono' button badges), though there are some reprocessed versions out there such as River Deep; Mountain High and A Christmas Gift to You, that I doubt had his approval.
Although RDMH was released as a mono single in 1966, the sessions were stereo and good true stereo mixes were subsequently produced. There are some fascinating (stereo) session outtakes here: https://tinaturnerblog.com/2011/05/2...-high-outtake/

It's true that there are no proper stereo mixes of the Christmas Album, which I think was done on only 3 tracks.
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Old 4th Mar 2020, 2:43 pm   #57
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Default Re: "Technically augmented stereo"

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I have an almost MINT boxed set of "The Seekers" , "A world of their own".
I thought I was the only sad seekers fan, I have most of their releases and was lucky enough to see them live 3 times (one was their world tour when they got back together as "Judith Durham and the Seekers".

Peter
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Old 4th Mar 2020, 3:08 pm   #58
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Paul - thanks for that. Wonderful stuff - and showcases one of the greatest drummers in Hal Blaine.
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Old 4th Mar 2020, 3:28 pm   #59
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From Harvey Kubernik, co-owner of Gold Star Studios:

"Phil appreciated mono. But we did back up with multi-track. So, if he wanted to go back to the four track, he would. He never did, ‘cause if he didn’t hear it then it wasn’t right. When it came to multi-track you could put everything on mono. The bass drum, the guitars and keep it. Once you have it on mono, it never changes. It will be the same on Wednesday then the previous Tuesday, the same sound. So when you do transfer from one track to four tracks, it’s OK.

And to that you can add voices, never losing the quality of the bass drum track, because it’s been transferred, it hasn’t been disturbed. You took the mono and transferred it to track one of a four track, tracks two, three and four are for voices and guitar fills. You follow? Everything is a fresh generation. It saves you from having to overdub four generations. You have less highs and less sibilance. And, we didn’t use pop filters and wind screens, we got mouth noises. Isn’t that life?"
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Old 4th Mar 2020, 11:00 pm   #60
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He's right but was limited to the tracks available at the time. Only a few years later 16 and 24 tracks became common so every track was first generation, and you could process each track individually. Premixing is by definition a limitation. Even today "unmixing" including stereo processing a mono track is only possible up to a point.
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