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Old 5th Jun 2020, 2:23 pm   #61
emeritus
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Default Re: Remanufacturing unobtainable parts.

Copyright laws are complex, different in different countries, and the goalposts are continually changing due to new legal interpretations, as well as changes to the legislation itself. While I have not kept up to date with the finer points since retiring, it is my understanding that, in the UK, copyright only applies ( to use the language of the 1988 Copyright Act) to " original literary, dramatic, musical or artistic works; sound recordings, films or broadcasts; and the typographical arrangements of published editions".

Objects not falling under these headings are not protected by copyright , but by other rights such as design right. Patents, and Trade Marks. Whereas copyright generally lasts for a term of years after the death if the author ( often 70 years, sometimes shorter), registered design right lasts for 25 years max from registration, and unregistered design right only 10 years from the creation of a design document describing it. Registered Trade Marks can go on for ever, as long as renewal fees are paid. The consequence is that, if a vintage mechanical item is more than 25 years old, any patent, registered or unregistered design rights will almost certainly have expired, and all you have to consider is any existing trademark rights. So having vintage repro parts made commercially does not involve copyright infringement for the UK.

Thus anyone is legally entitled to make exact copies of the basic Lego brick, as long as their copies do not bear the Lego Trade Mark ( the courts gave short shrift to a far eastern company who sold theirs under the name "0637"!). However, you cannot make copies of any of the later bricks for which design right still exists. This would seem to explain Lego's practice of regularly bringing out new models that incorporate new brick shapes.

I have no idea what the situation is in Australia, but do know that copyright covers a different range of things in the USA than it does in the UK. This is something to be kept in mind when getting info from the internet, and is a fact not always appreciated by even large US companies when they have attempted to enforce rights that do not exist in the UK.

Last edited by emeritus; 5th Jun 2020 at 2:45 pm.
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Old 5th Jun 2020, 10:45 pm   #62
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Default Re: Remanufacturing unobtainable parts.

Thanks Emeritus, very useful summary. Judging by your quote from memory, copyright would not apply to circuit or layout diagrams, though it would apply to, eg, user and service manuals. Is that correct?

Mike
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Old 6th Jun 2020, 12:03 am   #63
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Default Re: Remanufacturing unobtainable parts.

From memory, there was a reported case about 20 years ago in which it was held that a circuit diagram or a net list describing all the interconnections of a circuit, were literary works attracting copyright protection, as they were things that a person skilled in the art would "read". I remember agreeing with the decision, as, wearing my engineer's hat, a circuit diagram is a drawing that is not created to be looked at for its aesthetic properties, but is indeed intended to be read to obtain information.

I don't have an internet-connectable PC at present, and my phone screen is a bit small for reading comfortably, so I haven't checked the current state of the Copyright etc. Act1988, but in the old hard copy I have (2007 edition) , section 51 provides " It is not an infringement of any copyright in a design document .... for anything other than an artistic work or type face, to make an article to the design or to copy an article to the design. " . This implies that, while you can't copy a circuit diagram per se, you are free to build a circuit defined by the circuit diagram (as long as it is not patented, although patents cannot be enforced against private, non-commercial use) .

You really need to consult a patent attorney for the current situation as I have not kept up with changes since retiring. Any decent firm will give you a half hour consultation for free, although in the present lockdown most are closed to the public, with people working from home.
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Old 6th Jun 2020, 12:48 am   #64
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Default Re: Remanufacturing unobtainable parts.

The purpose behind governments making patenting possible is interesting.

Patents are to stop inventors sitting on the details of a secret invention forever more. They cause the critical details to be published relatively soon after the invention has been made. This allows other individuals and companies to study the invention and if they want to build and evaluate whatever the patent covers. This revs up competition.

In return, the inventor gets a degree of protection which covers direct copying for a limited time period. The period is chosen as a balance between the amount of reward possible for the inventor versus the effect of slowing progress in the national economy.

So it's a compromise, intended to produce the best net advantage to the country. New ideas get disseminated and built on, but inventors get rewarded for disseminating them.

Copyright, I do not understand the reasoning behind the length of the protection. It seems to be entirely for the 'artist' with no representation of the public interest. I am intrigued by the extent to which some organisations are claiming copyright on, say, radio circuit diagrams reproduced on the internet. Compared to patents, copyright is a minefield.

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Last edited by Radio Wrangler; 6th Jun 2020 at 12:53 am.
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Old 6th Jun 2020, 12:49 am   #65
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Default Re: Remanufacturing unobtainable parts.

With the current available technology its not unthinkable that someone could
A) 3D Scan an entire objectt (vintage radio)
B) 3D Print tge whole object in bulk
C) Replicate the internals from diagrams and NOS tubes and parts
D) Sell on item as an original

I would like to think that I am smart enough to tell a bakelite cabinet from a 3D printed one in real life.
But buying online from a photo may be tricky.
Things like the very collectable Empire State radios could be knocked out quickly and they sell for around $2000 here on ebay.
Even a wooden case can be accurately laser cut and built and be hard to identify as a fake.
This is one of the things I fear now when purchasing things online and why I dont buy anything that says "RARE... COLLECTABLE" no matter how much I have always wanted said item.
It is getting harder to spot the fakes and as 3D print technology gets better it will get harder.
The only mistake I have made so far is purchasing "Genuine" HMV radio knobs.
They were genuine resin cast off the original knobs but I knew straight away they were not a bakelite knob from the 1940s.
Only a $4.70 mistake so no big deal and they looked the part.
But it was a good wake up call for me that "GENUINE" is not always genuine nor is it rare.
Photos may have even been real bakelite knobs but the product I received was not.
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Old 6th Jun 2020, 9:26 am   #66
David G4EBT
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Default Re: Remanufacturing unobtainable parts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Radio Wrangler View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan_G3XAQ View Post
Were those the 2N3866s with an in-house marking? If so, here's some light. The pic is a pair of cascode amplifiers I use for IMD measurements.
Indeed so. If yours have 4-247 written on the cylindrical surface of their TO-5 can, then I assume yours are two of them. Maybe from a G-QRP club stall or from 'ROO.

There are a few out there that I sent out recently doing sterling work in some loop antenna preamps.

David
There are two from a batch that David kindly gifted to me which have been in use every day for more than a year now, which are indeed doing sterling work in my homebrew loop antenna based on the Gary Tempest version of the 'Wellgood' Wellbook clone, mounted in my loft.
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Old 7th Jun 2020, 10:09 am   #67
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Default Re: Remanufacturing unobtainable parts.

Hi.

In my Magnetic Loop Receiving Aerial (Gary Tempest), those 4-247s kindly supplied by StationX (originally from Radio Wrangler), out performed genuine RCA 2N5109s and some Motorola 2N5109s. Not sure the Motorola ones were genuine though, the performance was down compared to the other two.

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Old 7th Jun 2020, 10:54 am   #68
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Default Re: Remanufacturing unobtainable parts.

Just glad to see some of them getting used. They'd been heading for landfill until someone asked me if I could find a use for them.

David
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