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Old 11th Apr 2015, 11:43 pm   #1
dhunt52
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Default Unusual Moser Baer electric clock

I brought this clock back with me from a trip to Poland.
It has a mainspring which is wound by an electric motor, presumably to give a few hours grace should the mains fail.
It is fitted with a pair of mercury tilt switches which operates every minute, presumably to drive slave clocks.

Unfortunately, the pallet has been broken and (badly) soft soldered together again so the movement does not work. I'm only keeping now it for decoration.

Some pictures are attached.
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Old 12th Apr 2015, 8:51 am   #2
Mike Phelan
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Default Re: Unusual Moser Baer electric clock

That's interesting. I've never heard of the maker but it seems a very well made clock - it's a shame it's not working.

What do you refer to as the 'pallet' - surely it can be repaired?
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Old 12th Apr 2015, 10:07 am   #3
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Default Re: Unusual Moser Baer electric clock

A Swiss company founded in 1938 and still around as Mobatime, apparently: http://www.mobatime.com/ and http://www.mcbroom.biz/blog/2008-10-11.htm

A similar clock to yours is pictured, and dated as 1954 here: http://www.mcbroom.biz/blog/photos/2...MobatimeXL.jpg

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Old 12th Apr 2015, 10:55 am   #4
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Default Re: Unusual Moser Baer electric clock

My Ericsson master clock has a Moser-Baer movement. Ericsson did not much more than the case to house it

https://www.vintage-radio.net/forum/...d.php?p=727800

My movement looks a bit different to yours though.

Moser-Baer in India has evolved to completely different kind of products. It started as a time recorder factory.

http://shop.moserbaer.in

I agree with Mike, it would be nice to get it going. Can you post a photo of the offending part?

Last edited by AC/HL; 13th Apr 2015 at 12:02 am. Reason: Typo
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Old 22nd Apr 2015, 7:03 pm   #5
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Default Re: Unusual Moser Baer electric clock

I’ve only just noticed this thread – I too have a Moser-Baer master clock, type H61. As you have noticed they are beautifully made even the wiring looms are individually laced.
Your movement looks identical and shows the memory wheels, a clever feature. Should power be lost and then restored (before the spring has wound down) the relevant number of pulses will be generated to bring the slave clocks back into synchronisation.
My clock has the extra hour & day of the week programming wheels. Within the case there is a circuit diagram and the tool for inserting/removing the programming pins.
The catch on my base board is missing so it is nice to see in your picture what it should look like. The only data I've been able to find is the installation manual, attached below.

Vic
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Old 22nd Apr 2015, 7:31 pm   #6
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Default Re: Unusual Moser Baer electric clock

A pallet should be OK if soft soldered properly, might be worth a clean up and re-soldering.
 
Old 30th Apr 2015, 9:26 pm   #7
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Default Re: Unusual Moser Baer electric clock

To be honest, I reckon it's beyond repair using soft solder.
The previous repair seems to have used soft solder as replacement metal and it was not strong enough.

A new pallet made from a blank would be fine, but my machining skills are not up to it.
An estimate from my local clock repair shop was in excess of what I paid for the clock, or perhaps he didn't really want the job.

Sadly, it's not going to be repaired unless the cost comes down.
I can obtain the pallet blanks, but does anyone know of a company who could machine this at a reasonable cost please?

Thanks....
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Old 15th May 2015, 8:49 pm   #8
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Default Re: Unusual Moser Baer electric clock

Had another go at soldering it, but there was no strength in the repair so sadly now consigned to the bin. R.I.P.
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Old 16th May 2015, 7:27 am   #9
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Default Re: Unusual Moser Baer electric clock

Don't bin it until you've got another one!
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Old 16th May 2015, 9:49 am   #10
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Default Re: Unusual Moser Baer electric clock

Looks to me quite a simple Silver soldering job, its much stronger than soft solder. Have you any Model Engineers or model Engineering club near by, they should be able to help with a bit of Silver soldering. As Mike has already said I hope you haven't binned it.
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Old 18th May 2015, 8:15 pm   #11
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Default Re: Unusual Moser Baer electric clock

You mention 'machining skills'- but why not do it by hand? Drill a lump of brass sheet with the right size hole to fit over the pin (tell me what thickness / dimensions you need and I'll post you a bit), perhaps leaving out the bush which is in the middle of the existing item for the time being. Cover the brass in engineer's blue or marker pen, and scribe around the existing part with them both on the shaft. Hacksaw and file it out by hand - OK it's a pain, but you're only making one. Then if you can push the bush out of the existing part in your vice, measure its outside diameter and drill out the hole in your replacement to suit. Superglue it in if it's a little loose.

This seems such a lovely thing, and the repair does not look so very impossible. (Oh - and I agree about silver solder. I once was defeated on an alto sax repair with soft solder, but silver solder did the job lovely).


cheers
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Old 25th May 2015, 3:07 pm   #12
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Default Re: Unusual Moser Baer electric clock

Thanks for all the help.
I don't have any means of silver soldering small items.... perhaps I need a friendly jeweller.

I will hang on to it until I need the space on the basis that another may eventually turn up with perhaps a burnt out motor but good movement. I only paid 100 Polish Zloty for this one so I'm not going to worry too much.
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Old 25th May 2015, 4:14 pm   #13
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Default Re: Unusual Moser Baer electric clock

If you want can send you a bit of silver solder and some flux, all you need is the blowlamp (or gas cooker, send SHMBO down the pub first!) Drop me a PM if wanted, free post at work. Do a bit of practice first to get the feel of it, in my opinion silver soldering is easier than soft.
 
Old 18th Jul 2015, 8:54 pm   #14
dhunt52
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Default Re: Unusual Moser Baer electric clock

Thank you for the offer merlinmaxwell and sorry for the late reply.
I have bought some silver solder thank you again.

I've been out of the country and bought another clock back with me.
The movements are identical, but the pallet is slightly different and the pivots of the new pallet are too large to pass through the plates of the old movement.

I thought I would swap movements, but the second movement self-winds continuously and never stops.

I am scratching my head a bit..... the 48V AC motor is connected permanently across the mains transformer through a fuse. There is nothing else in the circuit... no switches and no relays.

I can only presume that the winding process is physically restrained by the mainspring tension when winding is complete and perhaps I have a broken mainspring. However, the clock keeps perfect time and runs for several hours after the power is removed so the mainspring seems fine.

The motor is permanently connected across the 48Volt AC supply and if stalled, surely would get hot and perhaps overheat?

Perhaps I am missing something here...... any thoughts please?

Thanks.
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Old 18th Jul 2015, 9:13 pm   #15
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Default Re: Unusual Moser Baer electric clock

Quote:
Originally Posted by dhunt52 View Post
I am scratching my head a bit..... the 48V AC motor is connected permanently across the mains transformer through a fuse. There is nothing else in the circuit... no switches and no relays.

The motor is permanently connected across the 48Volt AC supply and if stalled, surely would get hot and perhaps overheat?

Perhaps I am missing something here...... any thoughts please?
I could be wrong, but sometimes, synchronous motors are used in applications where they're simply stalled when they've done their job.

Think of motorised valves in heating systems. The sync. motors works the valve via a gearbox. When the valve has reached the end of its travel, the motor merely sits there trying to rotate in vain. When the current is interrupted, a spring pulls the valve back to its rest position.

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Old 18th Jul 2015, 11:01 pm   #16
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Default Re: Unusual Moser Baer electric clock

It may also be constructed like an automatic-wound wristwatch, with a mainspring that is not fastened to the barrel so to slip when fully wound. I have also seen this in electrically wounded clocks.
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Old 18th Jul 2015, 11:27 pm   #17
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Default Re: Unusual Moser Baer electric clock

..... And to get the valve to sit in the middle position, with both the cylinder coil and radiator circuits active, the motor is fed half-wave rectified DC from a 1N4007 diode! This creates a stable position, with the stator always having the same configuration of North and South poles; and whichever way the armature tried to move, it would be repelled away from there and attracted back to where it was.

Note also that when the motor is moved hard against the end stop (by the cylinder thermostat being satisfied or timer calling for no hot water), it is actually powered via a series resistance to limit the stall current; because it might have to remain in that state indefinitely and the pipes themselves, being at an elevated temperature already, are of limited usefulness as a heat sink.
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Old 19th Jul 2015, 9:37 am   #18
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Default Re: Unusual Moser Baer electric clock

I wouldn't think that it's left running with a bridle between the spring and barrel, like an auto wristwatch or a first-generation Smiths three-train chiming clock.

My guess, for what it's worth, is as others have said, that it is a normal mainspring which stalls the motor when it's fully wound, and there is a break or torn out hole on the outside end of the spring.

This will make the motor run continuously but give sufficient tension to keep the clock running.
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Old 19th Jul 2015, 9:39 am   #19
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Default Re: Unusual Moser Baer electric clock

Thanks for the explanation, Julie, very interesting.
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Old 20th Jul 2015, 12:23 am   #20
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Default Re: Unusual Moser Baer electric clock

Dhunt52,

Not much information seems to be available about moser-baer clocks but have you seen this video on YouTube?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=msJ1V43z-14

I have audio problems with my pc but he seems to describe a pinwheel and a lever that releases the motor once a minute. If the motor also drives the mercury switches this seems to make sense as that timing must be precise. If it was to rely on the mainsprings tension I don't think that would be accurate enough.

Does this description seem to be applicable to your clock?
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