"UPGRADING" Bog Standard Portable Record Players

[Edward Huggins]

This Posting concerns the many enquiries coming to this site regarding dubious so-called upgrades to record players of the 1950s/60s......the "Sow's Ear, Silk Purse" brigade.
These range from fitting MM cartridges, adding RIAA pre-amps, changing the amplifier to stereo and changing the deck....Why?! It is highly unlikely that any of these mods will improve the sound. Indeed, they are more likely to highlight the many inherent system deficiences in these value-engineered units.
The only upgrade I have ever made was to replace a very stiff coned, small magnet speaker on a Philips record player with a larger magnet, soft suspension, twin-cone unit - to quite noticeble sonic improvement. Otherwise, I may have replaced a mono groove-digger cartridge for a stereo-compatible type.
Perhaps some think it's like adding 16 Gigs more Memory or downloading the latest version of Windows 10??!!
Words of consolation on a postcard please!? Edward

[Lucien Nunes]

Part of the concept that cheap players should be able to perform really well perhaps springs from the modern perception of the vinyl record as a superior-quality medium. It is perhaps not always apparent that such beautiful artefacts were also used by the masses on the cheapest, nastiest players on the market, so merely being able to spin vinyl records does not place a machine anywhere in particular on the scale of quality or performance. The reputation of the inferior players is then bolstered by favourable comparison to the complete tat that is made today, possibly creating the impression that there is no such thing as a bad vintage suitcase portable. Any deficiency that transpires might then be 'fixable' by an upgrade as it can often be with modern technology, where performance limitations are sometimes artificial or licence-driven. The fact that the underlying record-player is shoddy might seem at odds with the solid-looking construction and tactile beauty of vinyl.

There is a nonetheless a certain legitimacy in finding the Achilles' heel of a commercial product, where the manufacturer went just a bit too far in the tar-saving drive and spoiled the ship, and correcting it. This conflicts with historical conservation practice but that is not the point in question here.

[unitaudio]

Hello Edward. In my teens I used to get record players from the local tip so I had many test subjects to choose from and lots of equipment to raid for spares and "upgrades".

Cartridge and/or speaker replacement were usually favourite but I remember at the time being suprised how rarely a supposedly better speaker actually improved the sound. Cartridges were a different matter and I made some startling improvements to some of my better quality portable machines but I never got as far as magnetic cartridges and RIAA pre-amps, never really felt I had to at the time.

I eventually arrived at the almost inevitable conclusion that at least 8 times out of 10, manufacturers generally knew more about acoustic engineering even on portable devices than I did.

My stance on this nowadays is it can be fun to try but don't expect miracles or even success! If someone's endevours actually bring about a genuine sonic or operational improvement, that's great and things have been usefully moved on. If on the other hand that isn't the case then it's best to leave well alone if it works and sounds as good as it can.

Regards,
Paul

[Radio_Dave]

Originally Posted by Edward Huggins

. These range from fitting MM cartridges, adding RIAA pre-amps, changing the amplifier to stereo and changing the deck....Why?! It is highly unlikely that any of these mods will improve the sound. Indeed, they are more likely to highlight the many inherent system deficiences in these value-engineered units.

Well people are going to try MM cartridges because ceramic are no longer made, RIAA preamps goes with MM carts, upgrading mono to stereo was a factory option for many record players and changing the deck could be for many reasons... better quality tone arm etc.

David

[unitaudio]

...Coming back to the original point, the limitations of the equipment in question very often does make upgrading pointless and paradoxically a really good unit shouldn't need any upgrades. I do agree that past a certain point the item ends up becoming something else. That's not something I'm really comfortable with but unfortunately there are plenty who are fine with it. Aesthetics are everything to some people but I want the engineering that goes with it. Surely that's the whole point? I want to show my friends just how good some of this old stuff can sound when it's properly set up and adjusted but absolutely standards spec. I've made a good few converts this way.

Regards,
Paul

[TonyDuell]

Originally Posted by Radio_Dave

Well people are going to try MM cartridges because ceramic are no longer made,
David

Aren't they? What about the black-and-red ones used in you-know-what? If they are no longer made, there are certainly a lot around.

[Chiltern]

Originally Posted by Edward Huggins

This Posting concerns the many enquiries coming to this site regarding dubious so-called upgrades to record players of the 1950s/60s......the "Sow's Ear, Silk Purse" brigade.
These range from fitting MM cartridges, adding RIAA pre-amps, changing the amplifier to stereo and changing the deck....Why?! It is highly unlikely that any of these mods will improve the sound. Indeed, they are more likely to highlight the many inherent system deficiences in these value-engineered units.
The only upgrade I have ever made was to replace a very stiff coned, small magnet speaker on a Philips record player with a larger magnet, soft suspension, twin-cone unit - to quite noticeble sonic improvement. Otherwise, I may have replaced a mono groove-digger cartridge for a stereo-compatible type.
Perhaps some think it's like adding 16 Gigs more Memory or downloading the latest version of Windows 10??!!
Words of consolation on a postcard please!? Edward

I don't quite see where you are going with this thread, although I can see that you have many recent posts in this catagory.

Surely it is up to any forum member, whether they fall into any 'brigade' to make any mods that they may wish to their equipment. There can be good reasons to change cartridges, decks or amplifiers to specific applications, it is personal taste.

I have always considered Vintage Radio (and sound equipment) a worth while hobby. One of the many attractions being the ability to construct/modify to your own requirements. Way back there were so many articles in the hobby press of building this and that, your own tuner, a stereo decoder, amplifiers of various types and of course making your own record players, tape recorders etc, it is where many of us started and learned.

If someone requests help in fitting a MM cartridge to a record player, we should nurture the interest not dismiss it, does it matter if you do not think that it will improve the sound, it is their choice and at least there might be a convert to actually constructing something.

I'm always keen on another project, I do not need any more but they keep the mind active, now you have got the thought process going, I've always wanted to put a magnetic cartridge in my Dynatron Mazurka, might be the next one on the workbench.

Alan

[RojDW48]

On the whole I would agree, but there are exceptions - for example I have 'upgraded' 2 ancient 78rpm only Decca Deccalians recently by changing decks - simply because the single ended 6V6G amps were so good they deserved a crack at good quality vinyl - it was well worth doing. I draw the line at fitting MM carts and phono pre-amps to old RPs because sufficient compliance and quality is only rarely there in the original deck, tonearm and electronics. On the other hand it is all good, clean fun and harms no-one.

[paulsherwin]

As far as I'm concerned, anybody who buys a 1960s portable record player for high quality sound reproduction (as opposed to style etc) is nuts.

I was young when these things were being made, and like most kids approaching their teenage years had a portable (an Elizabethan POP-10, standard Autoslim/UL84 stuff). As I got a bit older I couldn't wait to switch to something better, despite not having much money. I started off with an SP25 and Shure M75EJ and a Sinclair System 2000 amp. I didn't have any money for speakers so used a couple of 50s radios instead. It sounded vastly better than the POP-10. By the time I went to university in 1974 I had bought some speakers and a tuner and had something that sounded quite decent. Most of my friends (mostly male) had taken the same path. I was surprised and amused that one of my early girlfriends there was still using a Bush portable record player - it seemed very quaint.

I was surprised and amused that one of my early girlfriends there was still using a Bush portable record player

Some people go for the content. 'tis said that conductors and orchestra players have quite poor hi-fi's because they remember what it should sound like and no matter how much you spend on a hi-fi it it will never be as good.

I agree about the 'nuts'.

[Edward Huggins]

Thank you all for your many and varied comments. WRT Post #8 I would regard this as a fairly essential modification in order to enjoy all type of records and not just 78s. And indeed, that Deccalian amplifier deserves it. It was also very common to find that many mid-late 1940s Radiograms also had their 78 rpm only autochangers swapped out to multi-speed decks - a very legitimate "upgrade". Even so their Tuners, Amplifiers and Speaker(s) did remain as originally built - and not faffed about with. Edward

[bikerhifinut]

I tend to go along with Edward pretty much.

I feel that restoring an old gramophone to as near as possible it's original performance is a fine and noble deed. By all means use modern high tolerance and stability parts especially as they aren't likely to be visible to the user. That makes sense.

Even the addition of a simple op-amp pre stage to boost a medium output ceramic to suit an input designed for high output Xtal cartridges made of unobtanium is perfectly valid. RIAA and magnetic cartridges........... well if you must and there are sensible reasons as above.

If a person wants a decent turntable to hear LPs on at a decent quality then that is exactly what he/she should seek out. For me that means SP25/MP60 and their counterparts as a starting point. Of course that brings the complications of amps and speakers unless buying one of the 70's Music centres with a urntable/cartridge. And there were some good sounding examples.

A

[paulsherwin]

I've given up giving this sort advice in record player newbie threads, but will give it once more here.

If you want to listen to vinyl records (or anything else) in reasonable quality, buy a vintage hifi system. Keep searching eBay for items close to you listed as collection only. Join your local Freecycle/Freegle lists. Tell your friends and relations that you would be interested in rehoming hifi equipment. You should be able to build a (not fashionable or audiophile but) perfectly decent system for under £100, which is less than some incompetently 'restored' Dansette is going to cost.

Typical costs for something halfway decent:

Record deck and cartridge: £0-£50
Amp: £0-£30
Speakers: £0-£50
Tuner: £0-£10
CD: £0-£30

[AC/HL]

As I remember it, the main reason for having a box record player back then was that cassettes & CDs hadn't yet been invented. They were all that was available to play pop music, the radio being for our parents for quite a while. It was mostly mono 45s, which they are ideal for, followed later by EPs and later again LPs, with diminishing degrees of suitability. At least one I can remember LPs fouled the cabinet.
I'd say to get significantly better performance, unless portability is critical, you need to progress up the food chain to a radiogram or separates, both of which can provide good quality for reasonable money.

Edit: More or less what others were posting whilst I was composing this!

[julie_m]

My dad "upgraded" (i.e., replaced everything save the mains plug and the box it was all housed in) an old record player in the early 1970s, with a transistor stereo amplifier, Garrard 2025 TC with Sonotone 3509 cartridge (a later fitment; the original UA8 was donated to a neighbour to replace a BSR changer with a broken overarm) and an external speaker. When he got himself a HMV stereo record player, I used the homebrew effort for a few years until I received a Fidelity UA10 one birthday. It wasn't actually a whole lot better, if the truth be told .....

[RojDW48]

Re Edward's point in post 11 - I fully expected to have to replace the little Celestion speakers in those old Deccalians but they stepped up to the mark in a most impressive way... and the cabinets took it all! I was seriously impressed with this 70-ish year old technology.

[sp10mk11]

I see absolutely no reason not to try and upgrade/change a record player, I find it interesting to see how competent some designs were, and were it not for cost cutting in some cases a better product would have been produced, I am all for it, I find it a little offensive when some people take a condescending attitude to others who wish to have a go.
The same applies to hi-fi equipment, I hate to think how much money/time I have spent upgrading equipment over the years, but it has all been enjoyable.
To me this is a hobby not a lifestyle and therefore should be enjoyed as that
Gary

[saxmaniac]

An upgrade to a mag cartridge makes sense when the only alternative is a rubbish repro ceramic. I tried a modern Sonotone and it was so bad as to be unusable . The cost of a basic mag plus amp is only a bit more than the ceramic and is much kinder on the records. Sound quality improvement is marginal as that's dependent on the rest of the machine

[lazythread]

A magnetic cartridge and pre-amp is a sensible upgrade if the turntable will take it. It does remove originality but is so much kinder to your LPs and singles. I remember the Hacker Gondoliers at school with Garrard SP25s and Sonotone 3549 or Acos GP90-something cartridges fitted. The sound was surprisingly good, but not as good my SP25III/Shure M75-6/ Amstrad amplifier & speaker system, which I took in one day for comparison. The head of the music department tried to get the LEA to buy a similar system, to no avail. That was 40 years ago this year, I doubt the rubber suspensions in those ceramic cartridges would be as supple today. I'm certainly not

If you want hi-fi, buy a vintage hi-fi but there's a lot of sense in fitting a mag cartridge in a Hacker Gondolier or Bush SRP31, if only for your records' sake.

[PsychMan]

I suppose it depends what you're trying to achieve. I dont see any problem attemtping to add a MM cartridge if it will work well. It's better for records and stylus availability will arguably continue for much longer as such cartridges are still used by vinyl DJs.

Of course many who intend to make dramatic improvements in quality will be disappointed with the results most of the time (but not all!).

I think in general there is a culture among young people to modify, upgrade and experiment. This is encouraged by many web sites like instructables, and on the whole is a great learning process and is to be applauded. Providing we arent talking "up-cycling"

I might add, I'm only 33 so its not been too long since I departed from that demographic

With the greatest of respect, the comments RE: memory upgrades and Windows 10 do seem a little condescending. I feel any interest in this technology should be welcomed among youngsters and comments like that may not help.

None of us will be around forever, and knowledge should be passed down. We all have limits on space in our homes. If for example we can encourage someone to take on a radiogram for a few years, that may well save another piece of history from the tip? Even if it does have bluetooth and a moving magnet cartridge Just my tuppence worth