BSR/ TC8 cartridges/stylus

[deedawales]

I understand from members' previous postings, that the stylus in original TC8 cartridges will damage vinyl records. Can anyone tell me if this advice includes the replacement needles (new?) that are available from at least one internet seller of audio parts? Apologies if I'm going over old ground!

[Audio1950]

Yes it does include the new replacement stylus. (needle) The reason that the TC8 stylus ruins stereo records is not because of the stylus itself, it is because the TC8H and TC8M cartridges are not designed to play stereo records. They have no built-in "vertical compliance", which allows the stylus to move up and down, as well as from side to side, which it has to do to follow a stereo groove. If you play a stereo record with a mono stylus (even if the stylus itself is a stereo one) when the groove tries to push the stylus up, it can't go, so it digs in to the groove, and eventually wrecks it. This does not apply to the TC8S cartridge, which is a stereo version of the standard TC8H and TC8M.

If you want to play stereo records without harm, you need either a stereo cartridge, which has to have it's channels paralleled, or a mono cartridge that is "stereo compatible", i.e. made with the necessary vertical compliance.

[deedawales]

Many thanks Audio 1950, I now understand, thanks to your excellent explanation, that I will have to "bite the bullet" and buy a replacement stereo cartridge and needle, what the heck, dam the expense!

[Tractorfan]

Hi,
If you've got a BSR TC8 cartridge that still works after almost fifty years, that is indeed a rarity! Crystal carts use a rochelle salt element that absorbs moisture from the air over the years and effectively 'self destructs'. I have a Philips cart that is now nothing but brown 'goo'.
Pete.

[MurphyNut]

I use to think these old record players were rather a straight forward affairs with a needle just sitting in the groove irrespective of it being mono or stereo.
My thanks also to Audio 1950 for explaining the differences.

My TC8 cartridge still works, but with playback the volume is much lower than it should be.
Yesterday I remembered I actually had a spare one and managed to find it, but alas trying it out it was even worse than the one I'm currently using.
As with deedawales, time to find a replacement to get the most out of my record player.

[Edward Huggins]

Without wishing introducing too much cognitive dissonance in to this Thread, it is of course quite possible to easily fit a BSR TC8S Stereo stylus to a BSR TC8M or H cartridge.
Whilst now having the correct tip size, the vertical compliance will still be non-existant to very poor. This means that should push come to shove, one could play old worn Stereo records on an occasional basis. But certainly not recommended I know!

[astro63]

ive been using bsr ful-fi for years and confess to played many stereo albums but dont seen / heard much damage, i always tend to adjust the pick-up wait on all my players to the lighter side , BUT id doubt a new stereo vinyl album would play on it with out skipping etc, stick to mono

[Techman]

I looked into this some time ago regarding the BSR "stereo" version of the TC8 and this is not true as regards to the stereo stylus, as both the so called mono and stereo versions are both identical and have the same part number, so when and if you order one or both of them you'll get exactly the same stylus. The "so called stereo" BSR TC8S cartridge has the same lack of compliance as the basic TC8, so is still likely to cause excessive wear to stereo records. The TC8S may be able to decode the stereo channels and feed them down separate amplifiers, but that's about all you can say about it. You just have to remember one thing, and that is that if the stylus shank is one piece of solid metal with a twist at one end like a piece of wrought iron out of your garden gate then it won't have the required compliance, and will probably have about the same compliance as your garden gate. I've previously repeated this information over and over again in this section, but people just don't seem to be taking it on board!

If anyone want's to dispute this information, please feel free to do so, all opinions are welcome as far as I'm concerned.

From the above it sounds like I don't like the TC8S cartridge, but I actually do. It's a good crystal cartridge with a good solid and warm sound, and good for playing 78s and old 45s. When I was teenager I bought a TC8S brand new for one of my record player/radiogram builds and would have likely spoiled a few of my stereo LPs with it, but in those days I didn't know any better - I'm older and wiser now!

I still have the TC8S in it's original case somewhere and it was still working around a decade ago. I'll have to dig it out again and fit it in a head shell and see if it still works.

[Restoration73]

I replaced a missing TC8H on a Silvertone r/p with one of the excellent Condor japanese
copies which were widely available in the 70's. That still works perfectly.

[Heatercathodeshort]

Originally Posted by Tractorfan

Hi,
I have a Philips cart that is now nothing but brown 'goo'.Pete.

That is the most ghastly example I have ever seen and I have certainly seen a few! I dare not ask if it still actually works.. John.

[tracypaper]

I agree with Techman that the stylus is the same for the TC8 and the TC8S but having stripped a few of the mono and stereo carts to repair I am inclined to say that the stereo version does have a true stereo compliance. Having one of each in bits I compared them to each other and found that the rubber stylus seat for the stereo cart does have stereo compatibility, but only on one side (the LP/45 side) the 78 playing side of the rubber was the same as the mono version.
I will post some pics soon to show the difference as we have the plasterers in at the mo.
Gaz.

[Techman]

Originally Posted by tracypaper

I am inclined to say that the stereo version does have a true stereo compliance.

Hi Gaz,

Yes, I know what you're saying, but it's the stylus metal shank in both cases that doesn't have the necessary compliance for stereo and not the cartridge particularly. The Ronette copy 'stereo' cartridge is just the same in this respect, ie, no compliance in the stylus shank.

To try to explain and make my point I've found some photos that I took early last year when I had some examples on the bench of both the BSR stylus with NO compliance and the Vaco Luxor stylus that has the shank broken by a soft flexible link, this stylus WILL have the necessary compliance. Unfortunately I didn't do any experimentation with the compliant stylus in a BSR cartridge at that time and the player with the Vaco Luxor cartridge has now gone to another home. If the Vaco Luxor type stylus could be adapted for a BSR TC8S, then this would probably solve the problem. It looks like the only difference is the width of the bit that engages with the 'seat' on the cartridge, but no guarantees, it's up to anyone who wants to risk buying one to try out.

Pictures below show the BSR and Vaco Luxor types - Vaco Luxor in the middle in the first picture and the Vaco Luxor both sides on its own in the second and third pictures:-

[John10b]

Very interesting Techman I can understand the point your making and the pics show it clearly. I will be interested to see some pics Gaz when you have the time.

[tracypaper]

Here is my theory on the matter of the TC8 TC8S stylus. While I certainly agree with Techmans analogy that a bar of iron with a twist in it in not likely to have any movement vertically or horizontally, we a talking about an thin piece of copper here which when fitted to a mono TC8 MUST move horizontally to produce sound, key word here is move, hence the twist. If the stylus did not have the twist it would move vertically and my analogy here is a springboard at a swimming pool.
Again this is my theory, when they came to make the TC8S cartridge they must have designed it to accept the twisted stylus (why make a new one if we can utilise an existing one) so if you look at picture 2 you will see a body of a stereo TC8 with the stereo end showing, notice the little green coloured piece of rubber, this is not present on the other side (78rpm), that piece of rubber ensures the stylus rests on it after the twist therefore creating the springboard effect (vertical compliance) along with the original horizontal compliance, picture 3 shows stylus present. Hope the pictures are clear enough.
Picture 1 shows the rubber stylus mounts from both the mono and stereo and you don't need me to tell you which is which, notice the two different ends on the stereo, again pretty obvious which end is which.
I have studied and thought about this dilemma for a while myself and based on my theories conclude that in my own opinion it is safe for stereo records.
Gaz.

[suebutcher]

I agree Gaz. As long as the TC8S has the correct 0.7 mil stylus, it's fine for stereo records. It will need at least 5 grams pressure to do its job, but in my experience that's OK as long everything's set up properly and the record and stylus are free of dirt and dust.

(The original BSR styli for the various TC8 models were colour coded green for 78, red for mono microgroove, and yellow for stereo microgroove, so at the time there must have been a different radius on the mono tip compared to the stereo. But buying new now you'll just get the 0.7 mil stereo size. If you want mono 1 mil look for old stock, it does make a difference when playing mono 45s and LPs. Astatic N8-1, for example.)

[Ekcoman]

Got me thinking as to what mono cartridges are stereo safe. Acos GP91?BSRX5M?

[Edward Huggins]

Yes, both of these are "stereo-safe" - but better known as Stereo-Compatible.

[Techman]

All good thoughts on the TC8S stereo cartridge - thanks folks!

I'm not too sure what you mean about the green piece of rubber, Gaz. If you mean the semi clear piece that protrudes on the LP side only, I think this is just a locating piece for part of the innards, the stylus is not supposed to touch or pivot on it - see my pictures below, but I welcome your further thoughts and comments on this.

When you say that BSR wouldn't use the same mono stylus with a metal shank in a stereo cartridge, well I think they would to save on money on the producing of a completely new design when they suddenly needed something to reproduce stereo - we see a lot of this sort of thing going on. Look at Garrard for example, when they had what was basically a single speed 78 rpm deck and suddenly had to add another two speeds, hence adding that ridiculous idea with the two short rubber belts as found on the RC80 etc. - obviously a hurriedly designed add on. That idea was soon dropped when they got new tooling and produced a fresh mechanism with proper multi speed changing, although I do quite like the quirky old design with the two belts.

The metal stylus shank just doesn't have enough vertical compliance for stereo. Obviously it has some compliance otherwise it wouldn't work, but you have to imagine the delicate record groove trying to bend that stylus arm against the mass of the whole pickup head.

Take a look at the pictures below of the BSR X5H and X5M cartridges with their associated stylus side by side and note the solid, un-flexible all plastic stylus shank of the 'H' version, compared with the flexible joint at the start of the shank of the 'M' version. The solid plastic shank stylus is well known to have bad compliance, which I think tells you a lot about about we're trying to say here regarding "good compliance", particularly for stereo pressings.

The last picture answers the question by Ekcoman, particularly regarding the Acos GP91 cartridge - straight from an original cartridge box.

Keep the thoughts and comments coming.

[Edward Huggins]

In my experience the replacement BSR TC8S styli that are still available have no colour coding (i.e. the yellow cited earlier) at all on the shank.

[tracypaper]

I can now see clearly that the stylus does not touch the rubber and after another inspection now agree it is used to locate the transducers inside the cart. But I am still sticking to my other theory of the springboard effect in conjunction with the rubber stylus mount, and to use another analogy, the metal leaf springs on the rear suspension of a vintage car.
Gaz.