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Vintage Tape (Audio), Cassette, Wire and Magnetic Disc Recorders and Players Open-reel tape recorders, cassette recorders, 8-track players etc.

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Old 11th May 2010, 5:36 pm   #21
ppppenguin
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Default Re: Preserving Old Valuable Tapes

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Originally Posted by Dave Anderson View Post
Storing recordings on a fragile medium such as computers is, I am beginning to think, a risky business.
Storing ANYTHING on a single device is asking for trouble as you very nearly found out the hard way. I don't think any of us would recommend storing precious recordings, or anything else, solely on your PC's hard drive. There must be at least one other backup copy. Inexpensive hard drives allow cheap and swift backups, whether the content is audio or anything else.

As for your dead PC, if the hard drive is intact (and the computer shop hasn't done anything horrible to it) its contents can be recovered by hooking it up to another PC.
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Old 11th May 2010, 5:43 pm   #22
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The HDD from your laptop might well be recoverable. You will need an external USB HDD enclosure and a 2.5-to-3.5 adaptor.

Alternatively, if you have either another working computer or an external USB HDD with enough space, you can put the old laptop HDD in the new laptop; boot up the new laptop from a Linux Live CD; mount the HDD and copy off the contents, either to the USB HDD or across the network.
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Old 31st May 2010, 2:24 am   #23
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Default Re: Preserving Old Valuable Tapes

quick update to this.
see this article for more on the tests done on optical media.
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Old 31st May 2010, 11:01 am   #24
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Default Re: Preserving Old Valuable Tapes

This is such an ironic situation !!
How often have we heard how new , digital technology will transcend the old and provide convenience , fidelity and permanence ??!!
I have many family photos going back over 50 years and most are still as good as the day they were processed. Even the negatives and transparancies are perfect.
The reel to reel tapes I have of my Fathers are also still perfectly good as are the cassettes from my youth !
My vinyl records are also still as good as they ever were , helped by the fact that they have always been used on good equipment.
Moving on to CD's , I have had only 1 CD become unplayable , this is due to some effect which has caused the disc , an original label recording, to go opaque and crystalline. All others in a collection of over 500 are still as good as when I bought them , as far as I can tell.
As far as computer storage is concerned , touch wood , so far I have not had a data loss but I understand the issues.
So despite all the hype , the old media has served me , at least , well. Photos and vinyl discs being so far my longest personal experience of data storage.
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Old 31st May 2010, 12:45 pm   #25
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Default Re: Preserving Old Valuable Tapes

Hi.

All I can say is that, as with the previous post, I have many original R/R and cassette tapes that are still in good order. However, CDR's which I have made in recent years do become unplayable with alarming regularity.

The biggest problem as I see it, is that it is very difficult to find out which are good discs and which are not. In the old days of say cassettes, you knew that if you bought TDK or Maxell you were getting a high quality product. With CDR's it would seem that this rule does not apply.

Progress?

Cheers,
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Old 31st May 2010, 1:04 pm   #26
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Default Re: Preserving Old Valuable Tapes

Indeed. That was one of the main points made in the article by the researchers - the inconsistent quality across CD-R brands is a major probem as nothing is guaranteed any more.
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Old 31st May 2010, 2:57 pm   #27
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Default Re: Preserving Old Valuable Tapes

Hi Ben you got in ahead of me with that click reference but Mike [repairman] posted re "phonograph on BBC Click" 29/5/10. This is actually just a part of a video program link that also deals with the CD/DVD longevity issue you highlight! Very interesting viewing. There is a video link from the page you put up but I don't think it's the same one?

As this is now quite a common topic, I was going to suggests that mods might care to link it to this thread or particularly the "Archiving Old Domestic Tape Recordings" one [31/1/10] but I forgot! Could even be useful as a sticky. Dave W

Last edited by dave walsh; 31st May 2010 at 3:07 pm. Reason: more
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Old 31st May 2010, 10:21 pm   #28
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When Compact Disc was introduced in the UK (around 1983, I think) I purchased a fairly early Philips CD player. I bought a few CD's to get me started. Those original CD's from 1983 or thereabouts still play fine. The Philips machine is long gone but the discs have survived. I cannot detect any audible problems nor can I see any change to the surface of the disc. I find this quite encouraging.

I think another point to touch upon is the progress that has been made by CD player manufacturers with regard to error correction circuitry. I remember my old Philips machine had problems playing some discs. Then I upgraded to a better player and those 'problem discs' suddenly became playable again.

I too watched the BBC 'Click' programme and found it worrying. Although my collection of CD's seems to have lasted with no visible or audible deterioration I am concerned about transferring copies of analogue tapes to CD-R. It seems the reliability of CD-R technology is not as good as plain ordinary CD pressings.

To date I have not experienced any CD-R failures. However, this is early days for me having owned a CD recorder for only a few years. I was advised to use CD-R's made by HHB. I have stuck with this brand but as we now know manufacturers of discs can change their suppliers at the drop of a hat!

I still think I will copy my uncle's tapes to CD-R but maybe I will make two copies. I have been fairly lucky with recordable CD, so far. I think this is the way I want to go, given the sort of equipment I have at my disposal. I must also take account of space and storage considerations. A few CD-R's don't take up a lot of room.

Dave
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Old 1st Jun 2010, 7:34 am   #29
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Default Re: Preserving Old Valuable Tapes

Indeed, a pressed CD is in many respects similar to a vinyl record, in that the disc is actually 'stamped' mechanically. It is then coated with a thin layer of alumnium (for reflectivity) and finally coated with some form of lacquer for protection. In this respect it is a rather stable formulation, save for some specific CD's where the production process was faulty causing the discs to deteriorate rapidly.

A CD-R in contrast relies on a chemical 'dye' which changes its reflectivity when heated by the recording laser beam in the CD-R drive. Age, light and heat however also affect the recording layer. It's a totally different process, and iIn this respect it is not really a stable formulation to start with.

I'd say it's alright to transfer tapes to CD-R for listening or short-term archiving, but for long-term archiving I'd store the digial data on at least two hard disks, and re-copy the data to a new one every year or so. This is not so hard to do, just plug in your drives using USB to your computer, and copy everything. It is however an investment in time and money that must be made just to keep you archive 'alive' which is a nuisance (albeit a minor one compared to copying hoards of CD's or DVD's every so often).

/Ricard
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Old 1st Jun 2010, 7:34 am   #30
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Default Re: Preserving Old Valuable Tapes

I think CD recordings are the best way to archive audio, but as has been said - make an extra copy or two, preferably on a different make of blank CD.
The only problems I have had with CDs - usually MP3 ones, are in the car - where they tend to get physically damaged & get the extreems of temperature & humidity - but what other way can you record on one CD about 10 hours of pretty good quality audio? - great for a long journey.
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Old 2nd Jun 2010, 9:33 am   #31
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Default Re: Preserving Old Valuable Tapes

Maybe, but an MP3 is NOT an archival transfer by any stretch of the imagination.
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Old 2nd Jun 2010, 10:02 am   #32
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Default Re: Preserving Old Valuable Tapes

hi dave , as a somone who works for a radio statio hear is how we arcive , the show is recoreded to a pc using a audiophine sound card , also if its inportant its recordes to a 1 1/4 inch reel to reel for arcive , my shows get put on to cd , hdd and my pc , also some of the important intevews and mixed down to mono and made in to 320k mp3 , as we are talking about voive this is more than enough , i have a web server i use to keep a copy , in mp3 format , so i guess im saying back it up to the pc , use a good tape deack and a good sound card not the onbord junk , and make a copy to all teh formats you can think of , and keep at least 1 copy away from your home , if you want to clean it use adobe audition its megga bucks but you can get a 30 day trial from ther webside thats free and is fully working , oh and make suer you use good headphones to edit or a decent amp and speakers , i have mordant short ones on this pc with a audiophone card , maudio make a nice one for around £100 hope this helps
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Old 3rd Jun 2010, 1:03 pm   #33
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Default Re: Preserving Old Valuable Tapes

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The biggest problem as I see it, is that it is very difficult to find out which are good discs and which are not.
Actually it is dead easy to find out who really made the discs you are using. Download a copy of Plextools http://www.plextor-digital.com/index...view.download/(or one of the other CD indentifier programs), run it and click on the CD Info tab where you will find all you wanted to know about the CD you have in your drive.

As I've said before, just about the only CD-R brand that is safe to recommend is Taiyo Yuden. Just about every other brand has gone down the low cost, poor quality route but Taiyo Yuden discs still cost more than 20p each in bulk.

James.
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Old 3rd Jun 2010, 3:32 pm   #34
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Default Re: Preserving Old Valuable Tapes

Thanks for that James. I do have a similar programme and it works well. The problem is though, that by the time you've popped it in the drive and checked it out, you've already bought it! Plus, as has already been mentioned, a given brand may be sourced from different manufacturers from one batch to the next. So at the end of the day you still don't know what you're buying!

Still, we're only the customers. What do we matter?

Cheers,
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Old 3rd Jun 2010, 4:06 pm   #35
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Default Re: Preserving Old Valuable Tapes

All this debate over brands of CDR seems a little pointless to me. A CD is tiny, it only holds 700MB. DVDs are a little bigger but hardly enough to matter and DVDR is even less reliable than CDR.

If you want to archive lots of data (audio and video are just that once digitised) you need:

  • BIG - self evident though it has the "eggs in one basket" problem
  • Reliable - CDR and DVDR are not, for the most part.
  • Easy to replicate - to encourage you to make extra copies from time to time
  • Cheap - again self evident
  • Future proof
The medium that currently comes closest to this for most of us is a hard drive. A cheap 500GB drive holds over 700 CD equivalent, even without compression. That's a lot cheaper than decent CDR blanks. You can (and should) have more than one, different makes if you're a pessimist. Replication is easy, reliability is respectable. As for future proofing, PATA and SATA drives have had a good long overlap period. SATA will almost certainly have a long overlap with the next standard. This makes it easy to replicate.

At the high end, I'm sure there are high capacity tape systems but they are expensive.
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Old 4th Jun 2010, 2:00 pm   #36
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he problem is though, that by the time you've popped it in the drive and checked it out, you've already bought it! Plus, as has already been mentioned, a given brand may be sourced from different manufacturers from one batch to the next. So at the end of the day you still don't know what you're buying!
If I buy Taiyo Yuden discs which turn out to be made by another manufacturer then I'd be on to trading standards pretty quickly.

I hope no-one minds if I suggest a few sources...

My most recent discs have come from http://www.cvbmedia.co.uk/taiyo-yuden-shop.html
while I have also ordered from http://www.svsmedia.orangehome.co.uk/wd4a.htm in the past (they also sell a good selection of reel to reel tape).

Most of the other professional media suppliers like PMD and APR Media also supply genuine Taiyo Yuden discs. I notice that PMD also have their own archival grade discs but I don't know who makes them.

Cheers

James.
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Old 4th Jun 2010, 4:31 pm   #37
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"If I buy discs which turn out to be made by another manufacturer then I'd be on to trading standards pretty quickly".

Hmm! It is rare indeed for any manufacturer to guarantee they have produced an item in its entirity without ever using sub-contractors at some time in their annual production cycle, so it is unlikely Trading Standards will support a claim without that 100% guarentee of origin. Most manufacturers work with associate companies to ensure they can meet sudden demands on time.

Taiyo Yuden probably work to much stricter standard of quality assurance reject rates - and, as QA is a statistical anaylsis, some rejects will still get through regardless! My experience of 'Imation' floppies was that all their rejects got through - to me!

Barry
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Old 10th Jun 2010, 9:50 pm   #38
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Just saw an ad on the TV tonight about a blue ray HD recorder. The voice over said that you can now keep your recordings in HD forever Ummmm...!

I would assume that given that they are referring to rewritable blue ray disks and that data is even more densly packed that these would be just as suseptable or even more so than other optical methods of storage to corruption. I guess these are not a good route for long term storage either.

Reminds me of the Phillips original ad for cds "Perfect sound, forever"!

RJ
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Old 10th Jun 2010, 10:16 pm   #39
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Default Re: Preserving Old Valuable Tapes

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Reminds me of the Phillips original ad for cds "Perfect sound, forever"!
There's no reason why commercially released CDs shouldn't last forever, or at least for a very long time, assuming they are manufactured properly from the correct grade of materials. I have quite a few first and second generation CDs from before 1985 and none has shown signs of degradation. There have been some cases of CD failure reported, but this is attributable to poor manufacturing processes.

The problem with CD-Rs and related technology is the photochemical processes used to store the information. The dyes have turned out to have very variable stability. I certainly wouldn't rely on CD-R disks to store anything important.

Paul
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Old 10th Jun 2010, 10:39 pm   #40
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Oh I agree, stamped cds should last a very long time indeed if stored correctly, its the "forever claim I wasn't convinced about in the ad
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