Non branded electrolytic capacitors. - UK Vintage Radio Repair and Restoration Discussion Forum

johnny english · 18th May 2015, 11:18 am

Going through a capacitor replacement on my NAD amp (circa 93) which uses Elna caps (blue). I have managed to source most of the values in the 25 and 50V range from the same manufacturer (NOS) except one, a 10uF-25V cap. I know I can replace it from a different range from the same manufacturer. However when searching the web quite a few suppliers were selling black cased unbranded caps offering a fair range of values at very good prices. I was wondering if any of the forum members had used these and whether they were any good or should be avoided.

G6Tanuki · 18th May 2015, 12:27 pm

I'd go for a current-production (not "NOS" - how do you know it's not aged in the same way as the one you're replacing??) branded capacitor sourced from a reputable comercial supplier, rather than an unbranded one from some unnamed online auction-house supplier.

Beware though - there are fake capacitors out there. For example "Rubycon" is a reputable brand; the fakes are branded "Rulycon" and can easily fool the unwary.

If you buy from someone like RS Components or Farnell there's a good chance the parts you get will be OK.

johnny english · 18th May 2015, 2:32 pm

"Of course you're right" but my intention is to keep the amp as near original as possible. I know I may have taken a bit of a gamble but I was worried that fitting a different manufacturer's components may have changed the sound.

Thanks for sharing your knowledge. I learn something new every time I raise a question on this brilliant forum

G8HQP Dave · 18th May 2015, 2:55 pm

It is very rare that the brand of a component can affect sound quality. Electrical parameters can sometimes do this (e.g. ESR) but even that is not as common in audio as many people imagine. In most cases replacing a faulty capacitor with an ordinary non-faulty one will fully restore the sound. Large-scale 'cap replacement' is an excellent way to introduce new faults into a formerly working item.

boxdoctor · 18th May 2015, 4:32 pm

During the many years I serviced audio and electronic musical instruments, I encountered many Elna electrolytic caps, and never had cause to replace one, as far as I remember.
If you do replace them, I would choose a known reputable make (such as the excellent Rubycon brand mentioned by G6Tanuki), and buy ones rated at 105 degree temperature. They are always better made, and tend to have a lower E.S.R. than the 85 degree types. In fact I only fit 105 degree types nowadays. Tony

Diabolical Artificer · 19th May 2015, 4:13 pm

In all the amplifiers I've fixed and replaced components I've never worried about the brand
of components. That is apart from trying to get reputable brands when I can afford them, like Rubycon,Panasonic,Vishay,F+T for capacitors. That's because I know these brands are well made and will last and of course have the correct specified parameters.

I play various musical instruments, as a result my ears pick up sounds and nuances other other people may not. I've never heard a piece of music and thought " Ah, that amplifier is using orange drop capacitors, what clarity, what timbre"

That said the the placebo effect is a well known and documented phenomenon. When I've given my bike a good clean and polish it seems to run better

Andy.

HamishBoxer · 19th May 2015, 5:41 pm

Good quality current production caps every time without a doubt and of course 105C rated.

McMurdo · 19th May 2015, 6:36 pm

In industrial circles there's also Nichicon, Nippon Chemicon, Epcos (Siemens & Halske) and Roederstein as top-quality electrolytics, all available from the main suppliers.

G6Tanuki · 19th May 2015, 6:58 pm

Must admit, "ELNA" is not a capacitor brand I find features often in my world of supplier-traceability and NATO-stock-numbers.

I note that there appear to be fake ELNA capacitors being peddled to the audiophile world:

http://hobbyaudios.blogspot.co.uk/20...capacitor.html

G6Tanuki · 19th May 2015, 6:59 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by McMurdo

In industrial circles there's also Nichicon, Nippon Chemicon, Epcos (Siemens & Halske) and Roederstein as top-quality electrolytics, all available from the main suppliers.

Vishay, it seems, have taken over my traditionally preferred brand, Sprague.

Radio Wrangler · 19th May 2015, 11:27 pm

Vishay have been on a takeover spree for years. It's amazing what they now own.

David

DangerMan · 19th May 2015, 11:59 pm

The "black unbranded" caps may be "Multicomp" ones... these have a sort of diamond logo on them and are often sold as no-frills components.

Time will tell how long they will last in applications which do not push their performance envelope (ripple current, temperature), and we could only use them at work in applications where they offered the only available alternative to "approved supplier" items, and these were often in replacement of very old components in very old industrial equipment.. but I do know I never had any complaints, difficulties or early life failures with them.

If the NAD components were commodity 85 degree items, as I suspect they were (in a previous life I sold and serviced their products), these more modern commodity items are likely to be as good as or better than them.
Capacitor technology has moved on in many ways.

If the caps are available from more prestigious names, fair do's, but I wouldn't use NOS ones from the era for the reasons that G6Tanuki has stated.

Pete

percival007 · 20th May 2015, 7:43 am

CPC sell these Rubycon Caps.

http://cpc.farnell.com/rubycon/25ml1...25v/dp/CA07526

CPC also sell Panasonic Caps which I find very good.

Just beware they have introduced a £10 minimum order for free delivery.

James.

PsychMan · 20th May 2015, 9:22 am

I'd also stick to brands like Vishay, unbranded ones are unknown quantities.

Is there are reason you're replacing all the capacitors? I would have thought an early 90s solid state amp would still have serviceable caps. Is there any fault with it at present?

HamishBoxer · 20th May 2015, 10:08 am

Depends how much hammer and heat it has suffered. My Pioneer amp from the 80,s is still fine.

johnny english · 20th May 2015, 2:25 pm

Well Folks.
Thanks for all your advice I will now order current production caps from Farnell, I posted a problem I had with a Nad 306 amp and was advised to change a few caps. I'm not replacing all of them just the ones around the amp protection circuit. I received the NOS Elna caps and not one of them corresponded to the specs either in capacitance or ESR. Being new to solid state amps a new world of knowledge has opened up to me. If I may ask one more question how do you determine what is a good ESR as various electrolytic caps show less than an ohm and others nearly two.
Thanks Ed.

AC/HL · 20th May 2015, 3:32 pm

It depends mostly on capacitance, but voltage ratings have some influence (according to the chart in the Peak handbook) They quote "typical", so expect some variation.

mark pirate · 20th May 2015, 5:02 pm

Quote:

My Pioneer amp from the 80,s is still fine.

Both my mid/late 70's Leak and JVC amps are still on their original caps and running perfectly.

I did go over the JVC with an ESR meter when I opened it up last year to clean the pots, the caps were all still well in spec.

I would agree that unbranded caps are too much of a risk, I would rather spend a bit more to get decent branded caps.
After all, who would want to have to replace them a second time?

Mark

18th May 2015, 11:18 am	#1
johnny english Retired Dormant Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Location: Liverpool, Merseyside, UK. Posts: 160	Non branded electrolytic capacitors. Going through a capacitor replacement on my NAD amp (circa 93) which uses Elna caps (blue). I have managed to source most of the values in the 25 and 50V range from the same manufacturer (NOS) except one, a 10uF-25V cap. I know I can replace it from a different range from the same manufacturer. However when searching the web quite a few suppliers were selling black cased unbranded caps offering a fair range of values at very good prices. I was wondering if any of the forum members had used these and whether they were any good or should be avoided.

18th May 2015, 12:27 pm	#2
G6Tanuki Dekatron Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: Wiltshire, UK. Posts: 13,998	Re: Non branded electrolytic capacitors. I'd go for a current-production (not "NOS" - how do you know it's not aged in the same way as the one you're replacing??) branded capacitor sourced from a reputable comercial supplier, rather than an unbranded one from some unnamed online auction-house supplier. Beware though - there are fake capacitors out there. For example "Rubycon" is a reputable brand; the fakes are branded "Rulycon" and can easily fool the unwary. If you buy from someone like RS Components or Farnell there's a good chance the parts you get will be OK.

18th May 2015, 2:32 pm	#3
johnny english Retired Dormant Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Location: Liverpool, Merseyside, UK. Posts: 160	Re: Non branded electrolytic capacitors. "Of course you're right" but my intention is to keep the amp as near original as possible. I know I may have taken a bit of a gamble but I was worried that fitting a different manufacturer's components may have changed the sound. Thanks for sharing your knowledge. I learn something new every time I raise a question on this brilliant forum

18th May 2015, 2:55 pm	#4
G8HQP Dave Rest in Peace Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Solihull, West Midlands, UK. Posts: 4,872	Re: Non branded electrolytic capacitors. It is very rare that the brand of a component can affect sound quality. Electrical parameters can sometimes do this (e.g. ESR) but even that is not as common in audio as many people imagine. In most cases replacing a faulty capacitor with an ordinary non-faulty one will fully restore the sound. Large-scale 'cap replacement' is an excellent way to introduce new faults into a formerly working item.

18th May 2015, 4:32 pm	#5
boxdoctor Rest in Peace Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Ripley, Derbyshire, UK. Posts: 785	Re: Non branded electrolytic capacitors. During the many years I serviced audio and electronic musical instruments, I encountered many Elna electrolytic caps, and never had cause to replace one, as far as I remember. If you do replace them, I would choose a known reputable make (such as the excellent Rubycon brand mentioned by G6Tanuki), and buy ones rated at 105 degree temperature. They are always better made, and tend to have a lower E.S.R. than the 85 degree types. In fact I only fit 105 degree types nowadays. Tony

19th May 2015, 4:13 pm	#6
Diabolical Artificer Dekatron Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Sleaford, Lincs. UK. Posts: 7,662	Re: Non branded electrolytic capacitors. In all the amplifiers I've fixed and replaced components I've never worried about the brand of components. That is apart from trying to get reputable brands when I can afford them, like Rubycon,Panasonic,Vishay,F+T for capacitors. That's because I know these brands are well made and will last and of course have the correct specified parameters. I play various musical instruments, as a result my ears pick up sounds and nuances other other people may not. I've never heard a piece of music and thought " Ah, that amplifier is using orange drop capacitors, what clarity, what timbre" That said the the placebo effect is a well known and documented phenomenon. When I've given my bike a good clean and polish it seems to run better Andy. __________________ Curiosity hasn't killed this cat...so far.

19th May 2015, 5:41 pm	#7
HamishBoxer Dekatron Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: W.Butterwick, near Doncaster UK. Posts: 8,932	Re: Non branded electrolytic capacitors. Good quality current production caps every time without a doubt and of course 105C rated. __________________ G8JET BVWS Archivist and Member V.M.A.R.S

19th May 2015, 6:36 pm	#8
McMurdo Dekatron Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Staffordshire Moorlands, UK. Posts: 5,271	Re: Non branded electrolytic capacitors. In industrial circles there's also Nichicon, Nippon Chemicon, Epcos (Siemens & Halske) and Roederstein as top-quality electrolytics, all available from the main suppliers. __________________ Kevin

19th May 2015, 6:58 pm	#9
G6Tanuki Dekatron Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: Wiltshire, UK. Posts: 13,998	Re: Non branded electrolytic capacitors. Must admit, "ELNA" is not a capacitor brand I find features often in my world of supplier-traceability and NATO-stock-numbers. I note that there appear to be fake ELNA capacitors being peddled to the audiophile world: http://hobbyaudios.blogspot.co.uk/20...capacitor.html

19th May 2015, 11:27 pm	#11
Radio Wrangler Moderator Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Fife, Scotland, UK. Posts: 22,876	Re: Non branded electrolytic capacitors. Vishay have been on a takeover spree for years. It's amazing what they now own. David __________________ Can't afford the volcanic island yet, but the plans for my monorail and the goons' uniforms are done

19th May 2015, 11:59 pm	#12
DangerMan Heptode Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Stoke-on-Trent, Staffordshire, UK. Posts: 719	Re: Non branded electrolytic capacitors. The "black unbranded" caps may be "Multicomp" ones... these have a sort of diamond logo on them and are often sold as no-frills components. Time will tell how long they will last in applications which do not push their performance envelope (ripple current, temperature), and we could only use them at work in applications where they offered the only available alternative to "approved supplier" items, and these were often in replacement of very old components in very old industrial equipment.. but I do know I never had any complaints, difficulties or early life failures with them. If the NAD components were commodity 85 degree items, as I suspect they were (in a previous life I sold and serviced their products), these more modern commodity items are likely to be as good as or better than them. Capacitor technology has moved on in many ways. If the caps are available from more prestigious names, fair do's, but I wouldn't use NOS ones from the era for the reasons that G6Tanuki has stated. Pete

20th May 2015, 7:43 am	#13
percival007 Heptode Join Date: May 2005 Location: Oxfordshire, UK. Posts: 852	Re: Non branded electrolytic capacitors. CPC sell these Rubycon Caps. http://cpc.farnell.com/rubycon/25ml1...25v/dp/CA07526 CPC also sell Panasonic Caps which I find very good. Just beware they have introduced a £10 minimum order for free delivery. James.

20th May 2015, 9:22 am	#14
PsychMan Octode Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Fleet, Hampshire, UK Posts: 1,764	Re: Non branded electrolytic capacitors. I'd also stick to brands like Vishay, unbranded ones are unknown quantities. Is there are reason you're replacing all the capacitors? I would have thought an early 90s solid state amp would still have serviceable caps. Is there any fault with it at present?

20th May 2015, 10:08 am	#15
HamishBoxer Dekatron Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: W.Butterwick, near Doncaster UK. Posts: 8,932	Re: Non branded electrolytic capacitors. Depends how much hammer and heat it has suffered. My Pioneer amp from the 80,s is still fine. __________________ G8JET BVWS Archivist and Member V.M.A.R.S

20th May 2015, 2:25 pm	#16
johnny english Retired Dormant Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Location: Liverpool, Merseyside, UK. Posts: 160	Re: Non branded electrolytic capacitors. Well Folks. Thanks for all your advice I will now order current production caps from Farnell, I posted a problem I had with a Nad 306 amp and was advised to change a few caps. I'm not replacing all of them just the ones around the amp protection circuit. I received the NOS Elna caps and not one of them corresponded to the specs either in capacitance or ESR. Being new to solid state amps a new world of knowledge has opened up to me. If I may ask one more question how do you determine what is a good ESR as various electrolytic caps show less than an ohm and others nearly two. Thanks Ed.

20th May 2015, 3:32 pm	#17
AC/HL Dekatron Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Heckmondwike, West Yorkshire, UK. Posts: 9,642	Re: Non branded electrolytic capacitors. It depends mostly on capacitance, but voltage ratings have some influence (according to the chart in the Peak handbook) They quote "typical", so expect some variation.