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Old 24th Feb 2021, 11:58 pm   #1
bionicmerlin
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Default Manor House wiring systems .joint box & cable to identify

Can anyone identify this wiring system and joint box
I salvaged this joint box from a large Manor House .
Surprisingly the house was not originally wired in conduit as most big houses around here were. In fact one private house I used to work in had metal conduit installed in as late as 1986. Apparently it was the owner’s choice as he thought it much safer. Cost no object.
Anyway most of the original wiring in this particular house was long gone ,but I did salvage this joint box from a loft space over the stables together with some cable . It’s not been in use for years. It did have normal switches and batten holders on the ends
I have never seen this type of cable before.its not the common flat lead cable but round. The cores inside are oval . The Core size is smaller than normal 1mm possibly more like .75.
The only thing I can think . Did they have there own power plant .
and use this type cable.
I would be very interested if anyone has seen this cable before. Andy
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Old 25th Feb 2021, 12:41 am   #2
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Default Re: Manor House wiring systems .joint box & cable to identify

It looks like the old PILC service cables used in power distribution, albeit with much smaller conductors, must be 100 years old at least!
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Old 25th Feb 2021, 2:08 am   #3
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Default Re: Manor House wiring systems .joint box & cable to identify

There is nothing like this type of cable in the GEC catalogues for 1893 or 1911.

In 1893 it was either pairs of single cables laid in individual grooves in capped wooden casings of American whitewood, or the then recently-introduced flexible round conduit of bitumen-impregated paper with metal ferrules, available in a range of diameters, and used with what resemble present-day circular conduit boxes.

The 1911 catalogue still lists the range of wood casings and cappings, but the conduit is essentially the modern round steel stuff and fittings in imperial dimensions, available in light gauge unscrewed (closed joint and plain joint) and heavy gauge, screwed, in both electrical thread and gas thread sizes, black enamel or (for extra cost) galvanized or sherardized finishes. Both round and rectangular joint boxes were available, a difference from later practice being that the screws for the covers of the round boxes were in line with the cable entries rather than with the present 45° offset. There was aso a small range of oval steel conduit, with some fittings and round to oval adaptors. A 1905 GEC book advertised "papristeel" conduit, steel conduit lined with paper, but this is absent from the 1911 catalogue.

Last edited by emeritus; 25th Feb 2021 at 2:10 am. Reason: Typos.
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Old 25th Feb 2021, 2:35 am   #4
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Default Re: Manor House wiring systems .joint box & cable to identify

Yes it could be 100 odd years old.the cable is as well soldered to the metal box. This must of been quite a skilful job as well,not to damage the cable and also not to set the building on fire.
I have seen the wooden capping used in the past and I rewired a house in Poole about 8 years ago and it was still in use. I did keep a couple lengths for nostalgia.Andy
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Old 25th Feb 2021, 10:02 am   #5
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Default Re: Manor House wiring systems .joint box & cable to identify

Looks like Pyrotenax cable to me, with sleeving attached. Is it filled with white powder? Is the sheath copper? Not the glands I recognise admittedly.
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Old 25th Feb 2021, 10:24 am   #6
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Default Re: Manor House wiring systems .joint box & cable to identify

Not Pyrotenax as is lead sheathed rather than copper.
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Old 25th Feb 2021, 10:46 am   #7
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Default Re: Manor House wiring systems .joint box & cable to identify

Quote:
Originally Posted by broadgage View Post
Not Pyrotenax as is lead sheathed rather than copper.
Ahh... I got 'lead', as in what goes on a dog and which is sometimes used to describe cables mixed up with 'lead', as in the soft metal. D'oh!
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Old 25th Feb 2021, 11:12 am   #8
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Default Re: Manor House wiring systems .joint box & cable to identify

The 1914 GEC cables catalogue lists, but does not illustrate, some fireproof twin cables, mainly flexibles, in small conductor sizes which used astbestos to insulate the individual conductors, but these were not lead sheathed. They were for use in installations in cinemas etc. to comply with fire regulations.
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Old 25th Feb 2021, 12:36 pm   #9
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Default Re: Manor House wiring systems .joint box & cable to identify

Quote:
Originally Posted by russell_w_b View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by broadgage View Post
Not Pyrotenax as is lead sheathed rather than copper.
Ahh... I got 'lead', as in what goes on a dog and which is sometimes used to describe cables mixed up with 'lead', as in the soft metal. D'oh!
That triggered a very distant memory. There used to be some lengths of lead sheathed cable around at home. My father was expert in additional house wiring, but I never saw him wire anything up with it. One house we had was built 1929 so maybe he had stripped it out to replace with modern materials.
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Old 25th Feb 2021, 1:45 pm   #10
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Default Re: Manor House wiring systems .joint box & cable to identify

Paper-insulated lead-sheathed twin cable had a period of popularity for house wiring. Henley, for example, list it in their catalogues with accessories to suit. Being paper insulated it is necessary to seal the cut ends against moisture ingress, hence the pitch-filled compartment in the box. Properly installed, it has a very long life without the inherent lifespan limitation of rubber, and can be perfectly OK today. For heavy cables it was in use up to the 1960s, and of course many telephone cables were similar but with smaller conductors.

Soldering to a lead sheath is not really a problem with paper insulation. You can wipe a joint onto a cone or plumb two or more cables together using normal plumbing methods without damaging it, and underground lead cables both phone and power were terminated that way until the introduction of resin joints.

This box looks like something the installer knocked up using a normal C/I conduit box. The usual manufactured ones are quite neat little boxes in which the cores would be soldered, insulated from each other with paper separators, filled and sealed.

I too am on the lookout for items like this. I would like to make up a complete demonstration board of each common wiring system with all its period components. VIR / lead is easy enough to find and I have the accessories, but paper / lead is near impossible. You did well to salvage that!
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Old 25th Feb 2021, 2:04 pm   #11
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Default Re: Manor House wiring systems .joint box & cable to identify

I once pulled a length of lead sheathed cable with rubber inner insulation out of a conduit.
The insulation had turned to powder.
The old cable was used draw wire to pull a TV coax in.
The building was built in 1929.
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Old 25th Feb 2021, 3:52 pm   #12
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Default Re: Manor House wiring systems .joint box & cable to identify

Thanks for the messages so far. Lucien .
All the Henley cable I have seen has only ever been flat lead the cores were rubber type insulation then paper before the lead. In the later days of lead they even put a earth wire in it .
The fact this is round baffles me and no rubber just paper . You're right about the pitch in the boxes keeping the damp out. Andy
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Old 25th Feb 2021, 4:50 pm   #13
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Default Re: Manor House wiring systems .joint box & cable to identify

I wonder if there is anything similar shown in the film ""Stranded" In Prescot"?
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Old 25th Feb 2021, 6:48 pm   #14
Lucien Nunes
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Default Re: Manor House wiring systems .joint box & cable to identify

Good call. Mentioned at 08:15 of reel 2.
'Stranded in Prescot' excerpt
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Old 25th Feb 2021, 8:48 pm   #15
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Default Re: Manor House wiring systems .joint box & cable to identify

I have never seen those films before, thank you for pointing them out.

Prescot Works, inevitably, is now a housing estate.

And the background music for that section is "Barwick Green", about 20 years before it got used for something else...
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Old 26th Feb 2021, 3:23 am   #16
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Default Re: Manor House wiring systems .joint box & cable to identify

Thanks for the link for those films great watching them.
It’s so far looking like no one can recognise this cable.
I got some photos of the common joint boxes for the flat cable but the round cable must be a lot older .
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Old 26th Feb 2021, 7:11 pm   #17
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Default Re: Manor House wiring systems .joint box & cable to identify

Those junction-boxes bring to mind "Henley" cabling.
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Old 27th Feb 2021, 1:34 am   #18
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Default Re: Manor House wiring systems .joint box & cable to identify

The flat twin rubber insulated and lead sheathed cable was common, and there is probably still some in use. The rubber perishes where exposed to air, but the remainder seems to survive almost forever.

I reterminated loads of it in the late 1970s where the ends had perished.

The circular paper insulated and lead covered cable shown in the O/P is much rarer. Might it be not electric power cable at all ? but some early telephone, intercom, or servant bell call wiring ?

The conductors look very small for early electric lighting, remembering the low efficiency of carbon lamps. 60 watt carbon lamps in the common size and used on 100 volt to 110 volt circuits used about half an amp each.
A large room might contain several "electroliers" each with 6 lamps.

I have only seen such cable once, in a private house that had been previously been the stationmaster's house near a now defunct station. The cable came in from the garden, and was jointed to serve one outlet in the living room and another in the main bedroom. I suspect some form of bell communication from the station and/or signal box.

The cables terminated in a small wooden box with three exposed terminals one for each of the two cores and one connected to the lead sheath.
The exposed terminals suggest a non dangerous voltage.
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Old 13th Mar 2021, 3:43 pm   #19
Lucien Nunes
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Default Re: Manor House wiring systems .joint box & cable to identify

See attached picture of listing of paper-insulated lead-covered cables for house-wiring, from BI handbook 4th ed. of Jan 1927. These 300V cables are a distinct line separate from the ordinary low-tension class-A PILC cables rated for 660V duty. The conductor resistances indicate sizes that differ from the popular decimal inch sizes (.027, .036, .044 etc) which derive from SWG.

The standard 660V twin PILC cables go all the way down to 1/.036 conductor (0.66mm²) so might equally well have been used for house wiring at presumably greater cost.
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Old 16th Mar 2021, 11:24 am   #20
bionicmerlin
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Default Re: Manor House wiring systems .joint box & cable to identify

Lucien
Thanks for that photo copy.
That just about Sums it up, I’m sure that’s got to be the same cable. Just strange as all my years in the trade this is the only time I have ever seen this round cable. Andy
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