Pye 1005 - UK Vintage Radio Repair and Restoration Discussion Forum

reeltoreelrob · 5th Jun 2017, 12:31 pm

Hi all,
I have a Pye 1005 and the left side bass speaker is not working, I have removed and tested to confirm this, it is a 5" the make is R&A model number FS 12018 it is an 8 ohm. I am guessing that it would be best to replace both of the bass speakers for even sound. I have found this pair of speakers on ebay 292119722995. Any thoughts?
Thanks in advance
Rob.

Edward Huggins · 5th Jun 2017, 1:15 pm

Was the Bass speaker open circuit, did the cone move when a 1.5V battery was connected? If you do replace the speaker, do ensure that you re-wire the + and - tags exactly as they were as the phasing of these is critical. Unless you are prepared to spend the money, I would just change the one Bass unit. Do ensure that the 5" driver you buy is a true Bass speaker (i.e. long throw cone) and not a Bass/Midrange or a full range speaker. Please do let us know how you get on.

reeltoreelrob · 6th Jun 2017, 12:12 pm

Hi,
Thanks for the reply, I checked the continuity and it was 32k compared to the good one that is 6 ohm. I did the battery test and there was only a very faint crackle. I then connected it to another stereo system and the sound was really faint.
I have had the player some time but have done very little to it, in fact just changed the stylus and never really used it. I think it may have other issues as I was never that impressed with the sound, from what it says it sound should be room filling,in my opinion it doesn't sound as good as my transistor ferranti. I have never heard another 1005 so have nothing to compare it to, obviously a new speaker will improve things for a start. I dare say that the going on 50 year old caps are getting tired and would need a check out.
All the best
Rob.

Herald1360 · 6th Jun 2017, 12:22 pm

Have you looked to see whether the O/C is just in the pigtail from the terminal to the cone? If it is, a simple soldered repair may be possible.

reeltoreelrob · 6th Jun 2017, 12:41 pm

That is certainly worth a try something I had not thought of. I have put a post in the wanted section on the site
Thanks
Rob.

reeltoreelrob · 27th Jun 2017, 2:09 pm

Hi All,
Just a little update on this player, I checked out the speaker but had no luck with it, but I managed to find 2 used 4" long throw bass speakers and as luck would have it the cone fits perfectly in the hole in the cabinet so I just replaced the faulty one.
I then went on the replace the electrolytics in the amp boards only, some were a fair way off, then retested it with fair improvement, but something didn't sound right, so I hooked up the deck to another known good amp and it didn't sound good so suspect the cartridge has problems.
I know I am going to get told off for this but I have fitted a BSR sc12m to the butterfly (with some fiddling) I am a bit reluctant to spend £50 on a replacement butterfly cartridge. Tested through the good amp and sounded great, I then fitted it back together and I have to say it is the first time I have heard that "3D effect" from the unit, it sounds very crisp and clear, the only BIG disappointment I have is the bass is not great and I do like a bassy sound, as I have said I have not heard another unit to compare it too, but with smallish speakers am I expecting too much? I think if back in the day I had replaced my Hacker Gondolier with the Pye I would not be too happy with the lack of bass.
Anyone have any thoughts on my Bass comments?
I still have to service the deck as its a bit stiff and has an annoying habit of dropping the arm onto the record, the lid will need a rub down and re varnish.
All the best
Rob.

Nuvistor · 27th Jun 2017, 2:19 pm

I have heard it said that the bass on some Hacker units was a bit too much, rattled the lid if not clipped down.

The Pye it is what it is, the speakers and new cartridge will affect the sound, don't know if that would be reduced bass though. Enjoy it for what it is, I think we are lucky to get these units back working when original parts are not available.

Frank

reeltoreelrob · 27th Jun 2017, 2:37 pm

Hi Frank,
I think you have hit the nail on the head!! I have 2 Hackers with 2 extra amps and yes they do rattle the lids!! and as you say, maybe too much bass. In the defence of the pye it will reproduce the higher notes of a record through the tweeter and I feel you can hear much more of the music that maybe you would with the hacker. I think I have to remember this must date back to the late 60's and most equipment would be valve and this would be a relative new idea in a record player. Overall I am happy with it I have had it a few years now and it has just sat there and I think it deserves a little time spent on it.

Edward Huggins · 27th Jun 2017, 3:02 pm

The is no provison for weight adjustment on the tone arm and you need to check the difference in weight between the Butterfly and the BSR SC12M. The arm was optimised only for the original cartridge. This might explan the clumsy pick up set down. As to using the 4" bass speakers, the issue may not only be the smaller diameter drive units, but the crossover point as compared to the R&A originals. Whilst it will work with what you have done, it will not sound like the original player and never will.

vidjoman · 27th Jun 2017, 3:10 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by reeltoreelrob

I know I am going to get told off for this but I have fitted a BSR sc12m to the butterfly (with some fiddling)
Anyone have any thoughts on my Bass comments?

A far as I know the 'Butterfly' cartridge is wired out of phase as an aid to get better separation between channels. If you have wired your new cartridge in phase then the bass will sound weak. Edwards comment about getting the phase correct on the bass speaker is also important. This player almost certainly uses the amplifier design by CBS, the designers of the butterfly cartridge.

reeltoreelrob · 27th Jun 2017, 4:09 pm

Hi,
Thanks for the info, I did connect the cartridge out of phase, to convince myself I tried it both ways.
I will however Check I have got that bass speaker right.
All the best
Rob.

Edward Huggins · 27th Jun 2017, 6:30 pm

Whilst the LC crossover network on the 1005 may look quite conventional, the way it is wired and the way the speakers are connected to it, are not. Without the set in front of me to advise better, some experimentation may be needed. The phasing on this player was very specifically configured - hence it's Pye/CBS Patent. This player is like no other and should not be tweaked or modified in any way!

reeltoreelrob · 30th Jun 2017, 2:11 am

Sounds like I am getting really good advice. It looks like I am going to cough up for a butterfly cartridge
The speaker cone itself is the same size as the original but I will keep my eye open for an original replacement.
As for the deck it had got the clumsy action with the butterfly cartridge, so that will be another job.
All the best Rob.

julie_m · 30th Jun 2017, 4:07 am

The basic principle of this amplifier is, low frequencies have long wavelengths and there is no audible difference whether you use separate subwoofers located within a fraction of a wavelength of each other; or just a single common subwoofer fed witn a mono signal which is the sum of the left and right signals.

The Pye 1005 subwoofer is connected between the two amplifier outputs, so it would normally respond only to the difference between the L and R signals. But one of the cartridge channels is deliberately wired wrongly, so the subwoofer sees L - (-R) = L + R; and the high-frequency drivers on that channel are also wired backwards, so the two reversals cancel each other out and the cones end up moving in the direction the groove was originally trying to send it.) You need to keep track of the reversals and not "correct" anything that was right being wrong

The same idea was employed in the Mark II version of the AMI "Continental" juke box. As long as your pick-up cartridge has truly independent outputs, and you remember the apparent deliberate errors when wiring it up, it works well -- but it can't easily be interfaced to anythihg else.

If you do miswire any speaker, or the cartridge, the resulting distortion will be immediately obvious. It will sound "not all there" as one of the speakers is fighting against the others as opposed to marching in step them.

reeltoreelrob · 30th Jun 2017, 3:46 pm

Hi all,
Well I can't believe what a difference having 1 channel out of phase has made, my error was I had them both out. As you say it just did't sound "all there" now it is clear and punchy and a pleasure to listen to.

To be honest I was beginning to think it was an early transistor thing, as I have a Pye black box MK1 and think it sounds great, I then bought a latter transistor version and I just don't like the sound from it, it has not got that warm sound.

As for the 1005, I will need to do a deck service and restore the lid, plus I will look out for the correct speaker and maybe replace that cartridge with the correct one.

A BIG thanks for the time helping me with this.
All the best
Rob.

5th Jun 2017, 12:31 pm	#1
reeltoreelrob Pentode Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Birmingham, West Midlands, UK. Posts: 202	Pye 1005 Hi all, I have a Pye 1005 and the left side bass speaker is not working, I have removed and tested to confirm this, it is a 5" the make is R&A model number FS 12018 it is an 8 ohm. I am guessing that it would be best to replace both of the bass speakers for even sound. I have found this pair of speakers on ebay 292119722995. Any thoughts? Thanks in advance Rob.

5th Jun 2017, 1:15 pm	#2
Edward Huggins Dekatron Join Date: Sep 2015 Location: Southwold, Suffolk, UK. Posts: 8,338	Re: Pye 1005 Was the Bass speaker open circuit, did the cone move when a 1.5V battery was connected? If you do replace the speaker, do ensure that you re-wire the + and - tags exactly as they were as the phasing of these is critical. Unless you are prepared to spend the money, I would just change the one Bass unit. Do ensure that the 5" driver you buy is a true Bass speaker (i.e. long throw cone) and not a Bass/Midrange or a full range speaker. Please do let us know how you get on. __________________ Edward.

6th Jun 2017, 12:12 pm	#3
reeltoreelrob Pentode Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Birmingham, West Midlands, UK. Posts: 202	Re: Pye 1005 Hi, Thanks for the reply, I checked the continuity and it was 32k compared to the good one that is 6 ohm. I did the battery test and there was only a very faint crackle. I then connected it to another stereo system and the sound was really faint. I have had the player some time but have done very little to it, in fact just changed the stylus and never really used it. I think it may have other issues as I was never that impressed with the sound, from what it says it sound should be room filling,in my opinion it doesn't sound as good as my transistor ferranti. I have never heard another 1005 so have nothing to compare it to, obviously a new speaker will improve things for a start. I dare say that the going on 50 year old caps are getting tired and would need a check out. All the best Rob.

6th Jun 2017, 12:22 pm	#4
Herald1360 Dekatron Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Leominster, Herefordshire, UK. Posts: 16,536	Re: Pye 1005 Have you looked to see whether the O/C is just in the pigtail from the terminal to the cone? If it is, a simple soldered repair may be possible. __________________ ....__________ ....\|____\|\|__\|__\_____ .=.\| _---\__\|__\|_---_\|. .........O..Chris....O

6th Jun 2017, 12:41 pm	#5
reeltoreelrob Pentode Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Birmingham, West Midlands, UK. Posts: 202	Re: Pye 1005 That is certainly worth a try something I had not thought of. I have put a post in the wanted section on the site Thanks Rob.

27th Jun 2017, 2:09 pm	#6
reeltoreelrob Pentode Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Birmingham, West Midlands, UK. Posts: 202	Re: Pye 1005 Hi All, Just a little update on this player, I checked out the speaker but had no luck with it, but I managed to find 2 used 4" long throw bass speakers and as luck would have it the cone fits perfectly in the hole in the cabinet so I just replaced the faulty one. I then went on the replace the electrolytics in the amp boards only, some were a fair way off, then retested it with fair improvement, but something didn't sound right, so I hooked up the deck to another known good amp and it didn't sound good so suspect the cartridge has problems. I know I am going to get told off for this but I have fitted a BSR sc12m to the butterfly (with some fiddling) I am a bit reluctant to spend £50 on a replacement butterfly cartridge. Tested through the good amp and sounded great, I then fitted it back together and I have to say it is the first time I have heard that "3D effect" from the unit, it sounds very crisp and clear, the only BIG disappointment I have is the bass is not great and I do like a bassy sound, as I have said I have not heard another unit to compare it too, but with smallish speakers am I expecting too much? I think if back in the day I had replaced my Hacker Gondolier with the Pye I would not be too happy with the lack of bass. Anyone have any thoughts on my Bass comments? I still have to service the deck as its a bit stiff and has an annoying habit of dropping the arm onto the record, the lid will need a rub down and re varnish. All the best Rob.

27th Jun 2017, 2:19 pm	#7
Nuvistor Dekatron Join Date: Aug 2013 Location: Wigan, Greater Manchester, UK. Posts: 9,433	Re: Pye 1005 I have heard it said that the bass on some Hacker units was a bit too much, rattled the lid if not clipped down. The Pye it is what it is, the speakers and new cartridge will affect the sound, don't know if that would be reduced bass though. Enjoy it for what it is, I think we are lucky to get these units back working when original parts are not available. Frank

27th Jun 2017, 2:37 pm	#8
reeltoreelrob Pentode Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Birmingham, West Midlands, UK. Posts: 202	Re: Pye 1005 Hi Frank, I think you have hit the nail on the head!! I have 2 Hackers with 2 extra amps and yes they do rattle the lids!! and as you say, maybe too much bass. In the defence of the pye it will reproduce the higher notes of a record through the tweeter and I feel you can hear much more of the music that maybe you would with the hacker. I think I have to remember this must date back to the late 60's and most equipment would be valve and this would be a relative new idea in a record player. Overall I am happy with it I have had it a few years now and it has just sat there and I think it deserves a little time spent on it.

27th Jun 2017, 3:02 pm	#9
Edward Huggins Dekatron Join Date: Sep 2015 Location: Southwold, Suffolk, UK. Posts: 8,338	Re: Pye 1005 The is no provison for weight adjustment on the tone arm and you need to check the difference in weight between the Butterfly and the BSR SC12M. The arm was optimised only for the original cartridge. This might explan the clumsy pick up set down. As to using the 4" bass speakers, the issue may not only be the smaller diameter drive units, but the crossover point as compared to the R&A originals. Whilst it will work with what you have done, it will not sound like the original player and never will. __________________ Edward.

27th Jun 2017, 4:09 pm	#11
reeltoreelrob Pentode Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Birmingham, West Midlands, UK. Posts: 202	Re: Pye 1005 Hi, Thanks for the info, I did connect the cartridge out of phase, to convince myself I tried it both ways. I will however Check I have got that bass speaker right. All the best Rob.

27th Jun 2017, 6:30 pm	#12
Edward Huggins Dekatron Join Date: Sep 2015 Location: Southwold, Suffolk, UK. Posts: 8,338	Re: Pye 1005 Whilst the LC crossover network on the 1005 may look quite conventional, the way it is wired and the way the speakers are connected to it, are not. Without the set in front of me to advise better, some experimentation may be needed. The phasing on this player was very specifically configured - hence it's Pye/CBS Patent. This player is like no other and should not be tweaked or modified in any way! __________________ Edward.

30th Jun 2017, 2:11 am	#13
reeltoreelrob Pentode Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Birmingham, West Midlands, UK. Posts: 202	Re: Pye 1005 Sounds like I am getting really good advice. It looks like I am going to cough up for a butterfly cartridge The speaker cone itself is the same size as the original but I will keep my eye open for an original replacement. As for the deck it had got the clumsy action with the butterfly cartridge, so that will be another job. All the best Rob.

30th Jun 2017, 4:07 am	#14
julie_m Dekatron Join Date: May 2008 Location: Derby, UK. Posts: 7,735	Re: Pye 1005 The basic principle of this amplifier is, low frequencies have long wavelengths and there is no audible difference whether you use separate subwoofers located within a fraction of a wavelength of each other; or just a single common subwoofer fed witn a mono signal which is the sum of the left and right signals. The Pye 1005 subwoofer is connected between the two amplifier outputs, so it would normally respond only to the difference between the L and R signals. But one of the cartridge channels is deliberately wired wrongly, so the subwoofer sees L - (-R) = L + R; and the high-frequency drivers on that channel are also wired backwards, so the two reversals cancel each other out and the cones end up moving in the direction the groove was originally trying to send it.) You need to keep track of the reversals and not "correct" anything that was right being wrong The same idea was employed in the Mark II version of the AMI "Continental" juke box. As long as your pick-up cartridge has truly independent outputs, and you remember the apparent deliberate errors when wiring it up, it works well -- but it can't easily be interfaced to anythihg else. If you do miswire any speaker, or the cartridge, the resulting distortion will be immediately obvious. It will sound "not all there" as one of the speakers is fighting against the others as opposed to marching in step them. __________________ If I have seen further than others, it is because I was standing on a pile of failed experiments.

30th Jun 2017, 3:46 pm	#15
reeltoreelrob Pentode Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Birmingham, West Midlands, UK. Posts: 202	Re: Pye 1005 Hi all, Well I can't believe what a difference having 1 channel out of phase has made, my error was I had them both out. As you say it just did't sound "all there" now it is clear and punchy and a pleasure to listen to. To be honest I was beginning to think it was an early transistor thing, as I have a Pye black box MK1 and think it sounds great, I then bought a latter transistor version and I just don't like the sound from it, it has not got that warm sound. As for the 1005, I will need to do a deck service and restore the lid, plus I will look out for the correct speaker and maybe replace that cartridge with the correct one. A BIG thanks for the time helping me with this. All the best Rob.