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Old 4th Mar 2018, 4:23 pm   #21
dalgwcobl
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Default Re: HMV 101 Wind up Gramophone 59 motor

If you want to see/hear just how loud and good the sound from an acoustic machine can be, see the videos on YouTube for an HMV Automatic Model 1a:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JxWE31dY3CM
and an EMG Xb Oversize gramophone, using a Burmese thorn needle:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UanDpcJUYtc
The essentially hand-made EMG was regarded as the 'Rolls Royce' of acoustic gramophones, while the HMV was the last hoorah for acoustics, as by 1928 electric pickups were taking over. Note that both of these machines have electric turntable motors.
There is another YouTube clip of the equivalent American RCA Victor model to the HMV Model 1a, which used a wooden horn and produced a less bright sound.
If you listen on good headphones, or through HiFi, even though the sound is only as good as the microphone on the camcorder, the sound quality is still remarkable.
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Old 5th Mar 2018, 3:40 pm   #22
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Default Re: HMV 101 Wind up Gramophone 59 motor

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Originally Posted by dalgwcobl View Post
I recently used my Calcutta-made 101 (which a man who knows told me is a hybrid, but he didn't say why)
Sorry if this is not want you want to hear, but may I ask what led you to believe this was made in Calcutta? It's a standard 101, the first of the side winding versions from 1927, and definitely made in the HMV factory at Hayes, Middlesex. Sorry to say there's nothing "hybrid" there, it's a very popular, but also very common model. Incidentally, I've never come across one that still had its original carrying handle, they all rotted away years ago. Fortunately, all later versions had a metal core, which made them a lot more substantial.
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Old 5th Mar 2018, 11:18 pm   #23
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Default Re: HMV 101 Wind up Gramophone 59 motor

You got me worried there, so I had another look. As you will see in the photos, it has 'MADE IN CALCUTTA' clearly stamped into the motor board, beneath the turntable, adjacent to the centre spindle.
So, rather than a hybrid, perhaps it's a 'bitsa'?
The original carrying handle lasted until last year!
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Old 6th Mar 2018, 5:08 pm   #24
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Default Re: HMV 101 Wind up Gramophone 59 motor

Well. what can I say? Too late to delete the post, so I can only sit here feeling extremely embarrassed. Serves me right for assuming I knew it all!!! All the written history we have from HMV says that they exported all the fittings to India and the cases were made locally, in teak, as the tropical climate was unsuitable for cases made in England. These were, of course left uncovered and polished, so how this particular machine came to have that stamp on the motor board is a complete mystery, and one we'll probably never have the answer to. However, it has prompted me to investigate the eleven various 101s I have, to see if any of mine have the same stamp, but no such luck!
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Old 6th Mar 2018, 9:55 pm   #25
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Default Re: HMV 101 Wind up Gramophone 59 motor

Don't feel embarrassed! Maybe we've hit on something. Maybe the motor board is from an Indian machine? Maybe the case was imported from India?
That leaves the man who told me it is a hybrid. I wonder what he meant? I may be able to contact him and see what he says. Maybe my machine might be very rare? Wishful thinking?! I'll report back if I find out.
Anyway, it's still earning its keep, entertaining audiences I demonstrate it to. Although they are usually of 'older years', they still are amazed at how loud it is and how good the reproduction is - and youngsters don't understand how it can work.
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Old 6th Mar 2018, 10:44 pm   #26
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Default Re: HMV 101 Wind up Gramophone 59 motor

A tangent on acoustic gramophones for public performance:

I had a lovely conversation once with a cleaner, an older Francophone west-African man, who saw a wind-up gramophone in my office. He told me how servicemen in colonial regiments in his country brought such things back from Europe at the end of the war, and how he and his friends used to dance to them at parties (in, I guess, the 1960s). He told me how everyone danced in total silence and with great concentration, and how when the record stopped the room erupted in laughter and conversation 'like a cork coming out of a bottle'! Lovely bloke.
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Old 23rd Mar 2018, 12:39 am   #27
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Default Re: HMV 101 Wind up Gramophone 59 motor

Hi,
I received 400 'soft tone' needles in the post this morning all the way from Holland! I only ordered them on Tuesday!
The sound quality is now pretty good considering I am still using records in dreadful condition. The soft tone needles produce a more comfortable listening volume and I don't have to stuff a tea towel up the outlet
I had a feeling it was running slow and this was confirmed once I'd found my strobe disk. A quick adjustment to the preset slotted screws had the speed spot on in the middle of the adjustment. I'm very impressed by the accuracy of the speed regulation.
Now for a couple of questions.
1) The 10" disks I am using have no production dates like a vinyl record would have. Is there any form of look up reference whereby the catalogue number on the record can be tied to a production date?
2) The disks do not have side A or B marked. When did it become normal to identify the sides?
3) I've read that as time went on, disk composition got softer as they were not designed to be played on acoustic players. Roughly, what age are the newest disks that can be safely played?
Many thanks
Nick
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Old 23rd Mar 2018, 3:36 pm   #28
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Default Re: HMV 101 Wind up Gramophone 59 motor

The "A" and "B" sides of a 78 can be determined by the numbers on the label. For instance, taking one at random, the Columbia recording by Flanagan and Allen of "Underneath The Arches / Hey Neighbour has the catalogue number DB2725 printed on both labels, but in much smaller numbers "Hey Neighbour" has CA21474, and "Underneath The Arches" has CA21475, thus showing that "Hey Neighbour" was the "A" side. The notable exception are the 9" Crown records from the 1930s, which clearly have "A" and "B" on the respective sides.

The argument over which records should be played on which machines has rumbled on for years, but I can only speak from personal experience. I have never had the slightest problem playing records from all eras on acoustic machines, seemingly without harm. Records from the fifties, especially if played with loud, or extra loud needles tend to wear out quicker than those form earlier years, but then again, they are very plentiful, cheap and easily available, so I don't get too precious about them. Use only soft tone needles, make sure the soundbox has decent gaskets, and you will have no problems.

Barry
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Old 24th Mar 2018, 12:53 am   #29
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Default Re: HMV 101 Wind up Gramophone 59 motor

Decca FFRR 78s from 1946-on and similar later pressings were intended for use with Decca's sapphire-tipped stylus FFRR pickups and early lightweight turn-over crystal pickups. They weren't ideal on acoustic or steel-needled electric pickups, given their extended HF range and high modulation levels. I believe that the amount of abrasive in the shellac mix was reduced at the same time to reduce hiss; this would increase record wear if steel needles were used. I have a few EMI Columbia 10" 78s from 1958-9 which have similar characteristics to FFRRs. On a 'modern' lightweight pickup, they have low background hiss and a pretty wide frequency range. Some others from the same era, which were played on a friend's steel-needled radiogram, are well worn and distorted.
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Old 24th Mar 2018, 1:52 am   #30
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Default Re: HMV 101 Wind up Gramophone 59 motor

Some very late 78s were vinyl. I found one in a local charity shop just before Christmas and bought it out of curiosity.

You can sometimes find the date of release of old records from google. As child I was given my late grandfather's portable wind-up record player, similar to those illustrated, to play with, together with a chest of old records (Harry Champion etc.), some of which I now know dated from 1912 or earlier. All unfortunately lost when my parents moved house in 1967, but I have managed to get many of them on "Windyridge" CD compilations.
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Old 24th Mar 2018, 11:49 pm   #31
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Default Re: HMV 101 Wind up Gramophone 59 motor

Quote:
Originally Posted by dalgwcobl View Post
Decca FFRR 78s from 1946-on and similar later pressings were intended for use with Decca's sapphire-tipped stylus FFRR pickups and early lightweight turn-over crystal pickups. They weren't ideal on acoustic or steel-needled electric pickups, given their extended HF range and high modulation levels.
Thank you for the replies.
I found a box of 78's in the barn which are in appalling condition After discarding the smashed ones, I gave the remainder a good wash to remove the worst of the mould and the mud!
Most of them play remarkably well:- try recovering your digital files in 90 years
time!!
I took the machine into the workshop today and we spent a very entertaining time playing some of the records. My mate , who had never seen one before, was captivated by it to the extent that he now wants one!!
There were several Decca FFRR disks which as the quote suggests, did not play too well. They were very loud and the high frequencies did not reproduce well.

I was interested in the 'John Bull Record' (B12 Voyage on a troopship). The internet says these were sold door to door, and if you signed up to get 50 records, you got a free player as well!
It is a very thick record but has a raised band around the edge- I wonder what the purpose of that was?
This really has turned out to be an unexpectedly interesting project! I now need to get some better quality records and a machine for myself.
Many thanks
Nick
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Old 24th Mar 2018, 11:53 pm   #32
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Default Re: HMV 101 Wind up Gramophone 59 motor

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This really has turned out to be an unexpectedly interesting project!
Tell me about it, gramophones are an extremely addictive area.
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Old 26th Mar 2018, 8:09 pm   #33
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Default Re: HMV 101 Wind up Gramophone 59 motor

Your assertion about recovering digital files in 90 years is spot on - the fact that 78s and vinyl records many decades old can still be played on equipment which is still working, or is readily repairable, doesn't bode well for the digital era. Most of that will be lost for good. Just think of all the floppy disks, hard drives and operating systems that are no longer readable. Analogue definitely has a future!
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Old 26th Mar 2018, 10:45 pm   #34
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Default Re: HMV 101 Wind up Gramophone 59 motor

As is fairly usual, various people wandered into the workshop today and saw the gramophone sitting on the table. I've demonstrated it several times and people have been amazed! Our local coach-trimmer was stunned that something from 90 years ago with no electrical connection could play so well. She had to record it on her phone and, yes, google correctly identified the record as Flanagan & Allen- Looking in from the outside!
I'm very reluctantly going to have to give the machine back to the owner:- I must say I've got very fond of it and will certainly have to get one myself.

I can just imagine a young chap taking his girlfriend on a picnic in his Austin 7 in the '30's and sitting under the shade of a tree on a summer's afternoon with the HMV and a pile of jazz records!! Glass of Pimms anyone?, perfect!

All the best
Nick

Last edited by 1100 man; 26th Mar 2018 at 10:49 pm. Reason: spelling
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Old 28th Mar 2018, 11:18 pm   #35
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Default Re: HMV 101 Wind up Gramophone 59 motor

For the record (sorry!), I have received the following from Christopher Proudfoot of the City of London Phonograph and Gramophone Society:

"The Calcutta factory did make a teak version of the 101, but they also made the
standard cloth-covered version. The mechanical parts for HMV
gramophones were made at Hayes, and sent to India as kits, called
'Equipments', for installing in locally made cases. It is likely
that the motor board on yours is teak (English ones were laminated
and veneered in walnut); I once had an Indian-assembled black 101,
but I cannot remember what the motor board was made of. It was much
darker (almost black) than the Hayes ones, which implies teak; the
larger models cased in teak in India were finished in a heavy varnish
intended to resemble either oak or mahogany."

Mr Proudfoot is one of the patrons of the CLPGS and it was his colleague, Dave Roberts, who I spoke to all-to-briefly at the Music Weekend in Torbay when I played my 101.

It seems that it is not uncommon to find Indian HMVs in this country; many were sold
to the British military and civil administrators and their families, and they brought them back to Blighty when they returned after Indian independence.

Apparently, mine is a standard C101B, as introduced in 1927, the first 101 to be wound from the side rather than the front. ('C' stands for 'cloth', 'B' indicates the third variation from the original specification.)

So now I know how it got here! Anyone else got an Indian 101 - or other model, come to that?
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